New York

[Exsanguinator]

To all those affected by the events in New York this morning our thoughts are with you.

[Storm]

Yeah I was just coming on line to say the same.

Words fail me. I can only echo Pybob's post, You're all in our thoughts.

Jason

[ShadoeWolfe]

To all the families and friends of those affected - our thoughts and prayers are with you.....

words fail me as well.......

[Canker]

Words fail me..... I'm sick.......

Planes hijacketed, World Trade Center building collapsed....Pentagon attacked and on fire by a crashed plane....

As I type it is being reported that over 50,000 are estimated dead in New York.

What drives people to kill innocents like this?

[Lagula Longarm]

Our thoughts go out to all the families who have been affected by this terrible event.

[pinhead]

What can anyone say at a time like this It make's me sick that anyone can do something like this

[Goth Girl]

Mine too... sickened and saddened by todays events.

[Nathan]

You may be aware, there are hoards of people cheering in the streets of Palestine. That is not a good sign.

I just heard Tony Blair's (sp?) response... smile.gif

He seemed just as sincere as all of you. I know...what else would he (or any world leader) say? But I was heartened by it nonetheless...at least as much as I can be at a time like this.

Donate blood. Please.

[Goth Girl]

Just had this emailed to me:

Nostradamus predicted this (however, there is no date)

"In the City of God there will be a great thunder, Two brothers torn apart by Chaos, while the fortress endures, the great leader will succumb", "The third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - Nostradamus
1654

I don't mean to be frivolous, so I hope I don't cause any offence, but it seems quite uncanny to me...

[Nathan]

All seems to fit except the "City of God" part.

It is uncanny though.

[Canker]

I remember that quatrain (spelling) GG. :(
It was aaummed that it meant a nuclear strike in a program awhile back but it sure fits the situation doesn't it? Same city as well..... "The city that doesn't sleep" they say.

My post above was incorrect due to incomplete reports at the time.....
rumored that 50,000 people work in the two buildings at any given day (Mon-Fri).... estimated deaths are 10,000+. :(

May God have mercy on whomever is responsible for this tragedy.....and thank God that God himself is greater than the average person like myself because I'm sure that I for one would have no mercy on them or their souls. :mad:

For all intent and purposes.....this nation is now at war. Now we just have to be sure as to whom to turn our aggression and justice on. It could be foreign (Islam or otherwise) or internal to our own nation..... either way, if found, they should and do deserve the death penalty. (my humble opinion)

[Ema]

In shock as we all are, worried as I have a cousin who is on the First Lady's staff (after hearing first Capitol might have been hit), an Uncle who I hope was retired enough not to be where he had worked before... at the Pentagon, and his wife, my Aunt who is a Stewardess on an airline. Thank God not the two airlines that were involved.

My thoughts are also with Brian & Silky and all other travelers who hopefully got out of the states before the lockdown. The things that go through your brain when you hear something like this, you think of friends and family and Brian & Silky were in my thoughts... did they get out ok? Were they on the plane?

Thoughts are with the brave rescuers who attempted to save the first attacked, before, I fear losing their lives on the second. Senseless...

And of course, thoughts, support and love to all who have family & friends who innocently were caught in the middle.

[ShadoeWolfe]

Brian and Silky are still safe in Las Vegas - they were not planning on leaving until Wednesday - but that has obviously changed now. I'll try and keep everyone updated on their status.

[The Bloody Lady]

I just can't believe it!

It seemed so wierd when i was told today, then to see it all on the news, i don't get it, i do'nt understand, why? who?

I heard about the Nostradamus thing, it was predicted a man would come from the east wearing a blue turban, from ancient babylon, and while i do not want to add suspicion, ancient babylon is present day iraq.......just wierd though

for the record if this was for Islam, then i condemn it totally

and as for the palestinians, surely they couldn't know the full effect? i don't even believe that even they would be that cruel


my thoughts are with everyone involved and my prayers go out to all

Layla

[ShadoeWolfe]

Whoever it was that did this - they need to pay. And the price needs to be high enough that no one - NO ONE - ever thinks of doing something like this to any country ever again.

America and the civilized world cannot stand by and do nothing - not this time.... Our world as we know it has changed today and we cannot close our eyes and just wish it away.......

[Vavara the Hag]

What can I say that hasnt already been said by everyone here :(

I am so shocked and my love goes out to all who are affected by this atrocity.

Been watching the 24 hour news service and I am disgusted at what has happened and I can only hope that the American forces along with our men can find who did this and wipe them out (sorry if that sounds harsh but I can't help it)

Just before I go,weirdly enough that whole Nostradamus prediction was the first thing I thought of when I heard the news.

I can only hope that justice will be served.

Love Jen xxx

[Canker]

Amen.....You said it pretty well yourself, Jen.
Let's hope the sicko fanatics, no matter what land they call their own, are brought to justice before this unthinkable tragedy happens again.
:( :(

[Vereor]

I will add my voice and prayers with the many. Words fail me, thoughts fail me, and explanations seem too far out of reach for me to even begin to understand today. I simply want to say a prayer for all those lost today, and for all the loved ones in the world affected. A grave injustice to humanity has been commited against the world today. Please have all the people lost today and their loved ones in your thoughts.

I grieve, and only hope that everyone effected by today's events can eventually recover. This day and the people lost will forever be in my thoughts.

[topol_sheap]

To all,

I found the events of yesterday intolerrable. I believe that anyone found responsible should pay the highest price.

I really am still quite shocked, and really don;t know to say, is there really anything anyone can say? I only wish there was something someone could say to make it all better.

Anyway, my thoughts are with all affected by this tragedy.

All best,

TOM

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-12-2001 04:31 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Goat Herder - Tops ]</font>

[Ema]

Some small measure of relief this am for me. Got an e-mail from my Uncle, everyone is safe and ok for the East Coast part of my family, although he said he fears many good friends of his are among the dead or missing at the Pentagon, my Aunt was on leave from Northwest and will not be flying again this year, and my Cousin Desiree who is on the First Lady's staff is safely at home with her husband and two babies.

Like I said... a small measure, but one that I would wish on any person who has friends and relatives who were involved could feel right now, my heart is with them all.

EDIT:

I just want to add to this. The person I am and have lived my 38 years on this earth as does not, and never has liked the concept of war, but I am not going to kid myself and live in a fantasy, violence begats violence, and whatever happens is going to happen whether I believe in it or not. I am just one person.

But I want every friend I have come to consider as a part of my family to know that I, Kathy, will not, for any reason hate anyone I have come to care & love just because of where they were born. I cannot do that, and I will not do that.

Dave and the rest of the members of this board, I apologize if I am going over the edge here with this post, but it is what I feel, there are many friends I have that some here in the states would expect me to hate just because of who they are in nationality, and I refuse to bow down to that. I want it to be known that you all who are my friends will always be my friends and a part of my life.

Thank you for being a part of me.

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-12-2001 07:58 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Ema ]</font>

[Nathan]

Well said, Kathy.

Whoever did this did not do it in the name of an entire nation. Otherwise, we'd know exactly who did it because they wouldn't be f**kin' scared to accept responsibility!

The people who did this are cowering back and lying to the world, not giving the world anything except denials because they know that to do so would be damnation...even by their own countrymen. And then, of course, their utter destruction for which they have absolutely no power to overcome.

No...no one should lash out because of someone's nationality or background. That would be the same as those idiots on the West Bank cheering. Stand up for what you believe in. Cheer the death of US Military if that is what you firmly believe your people's problem to be. That, I can understand in "Wartimes."

But don't hate civilians for what their leaders (elected or otherwise) do. And don't threaten or cheer their death. You think even a fraction of the dead even gave two shits about the war in the Middle East? Much less, contributed to their enemies armament?

Those Americans who have forced Muslim and Islam websites to close due to their hate-mail, or threatened the lives of those same group's American citizens are no better than those people cheering our civilian deaths.

This has nothing to do with nationality...just terrorism. Those terrorists are the one's who need to pay not their innocent countrymen who couldn't give two shits about American invovement, but just seek peace.

"Them and any who harbor them." I liked that. (Even if it was read woodenly from a teleprompter by the most frightened man on earth. Sure glad he has a group of people telling him what to do and say! Hope they know what they're doing.)

Keep praying...if that's what you believe. Maybe it'll help. I myself am quite scared.

Rant over.

[Psykhopaf]

All I can say is this ... You have my deepest heartfelt sympathy...

On a personal note I hope to hell the Americans and UK wipe the reponsable people of the world...

[VonDarkmoor]

yesterday was truly a bad day, my thoughts go out to all those involved.

24 hours later it has only started to sink in, well the scale of it. it really makes you think how fragile a thing life is.

i am concerned that perhaps this is just the tip of a very large iceberg. What of the things to come?

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-12-2001 09:12 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by VonDarkmoor ]</font>

[Nathan]

btw--I meant to say that I'm glad your family members made it without injury, Ema. And I'm sorry for the loss of their friends as well as the friends and family of anyone affected. :(

Horrible stuff.

And a concerted effort with the UK and other sympathetic nations is very heartening to be able to count on. I hope it happens too Creech.

[Veriatus]

Obviously, words didn't fail ANYONE and that is to be commended. Your heartfelt condolences and statements of support come from the very best places in the human soul.

What happened yesterday in New York was horrifying, and unnecessary, but if you look at the way the U.S. was dealing with things like terrorism it is not surprising that this was able to take place.

Bottom line: The Gov't didn't do enough.

Hopefully, this MAJOR wake-up call will change the way we (the U.S. gov't) view, not only the world, but ourselves and our place on the world stage. We are not invulnerable and we never were. We've been arrogant and extremely lucky.

All my best to everyone.

Take care.

Robb

[The Bloody Lady]

First off, Kathy, glad to hear your relatives are safe, its not a good time for anyone who has people out there and its always nice to hear that friends familes are ok.

Second, thankyou for your post kathy, i read it and i know exactly what you are talking about, its hard for people like me coz we are the ones taking the brunt of things like this and just because if ever the government or any group of my country was responsible for something llike this i can safely say that a huge majority of the people INSIDE the country never mind outside would condemn it totally. Just because we are born muslims does not mean that we practice or have fundamentalist beliefs and i hope there are more people out there like you who understand that the only way to have a peaceful world is to be friends with everyone no matter what color, creed, age sex or whatever.

that will be a long time in coming unfortunately

and can i just say that i'm very happy to see so many wishes going out for the people of america today, i'm still in shock, i pray for those lost to rest in peace and i pray for those alive to have the strength to fight on and not give in to acts of barbarism

Manchester took 4 long years to recover from the IRA bombing, i hope that the people of New York have the support and show the strength of the people here and rebuild their lives and city.

[Canker]

Just a note here Scarlet.....

Neither myself nor anyone else (I believe) were assuming that Muslims were definitely at fault.

I feel your anxiety as to how people racially stereotype others and how (more or less) it has been jumped at that Islamist Extremists are at fault in this case. Myself... I'm keeping an open view as to whom might be at fault. It could be anyone with the resources and abilities to carry out such a well organized and orchestrated attack such as this. I'll leave it up to the professionals such as the C.I.A., N.S.A. and the F.B.I. to make the decision on this.

To me..... it doesn't matter what land one call their own nor what color their skin might be or even what religious belief one might hold. If someone.... anyone would take anothers life in such a way (Terrorist act) then they are truly EVIL inside and should be put down like a rabid dog.

Call him Allah, Jobe, Abraham or even simply God....we all have to answer to him eventually.


May we all strive to be better than this world that we've been born into is all I can say.

:(

[Nathan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Canker:
Neither myself nor anyone else (I believe) were assuming that Muslims were definitely at fault.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. Hope my words weren't construed as blame. Not my intention. smile.gif

On a lighter note about this whole thing...

Blood banks are full!! Rescue workers are flocking (again) to aid those already there!! Lines around here are forever long to donate non-perishables as I'm sure they are everywhere.

Ain't America (and the rest of the world other than these dispicable bastards and their supporters) great. smile.gif

[The Bloody Lady]

Yikes no!

i never meant that anyone here was blaming anyone

oops, no, not my intention at all!

i know most of you all here are very open minded people but alas as we middle easterners have extremely narrow minded people, so do the westerners

my thoughts are that all the open minded people who only care about having fun and learning about each other should raise up and fight the fundamentalists.....yeah i wish!

anyways, just a thought for the heros of the hour, just watched the news and saw tonnes of people clapping for those who help out, they are the true fighters for freedom, i wish them all the success and hope for finding as many people (alive) as possible

anything else pales into insignificance

Layla

[ShadoeWolfe]

The NYPD has just informed New York residents The Empire State Building has been threatened now....

Our country and our military needs to act now - before any more harm comes to our people..... we need to send a message to the world that we will not stand for this declaration of war on our soil...

Now they have just stated the area is safe.... it was a false bomb threat...

Until these people and their followers are brought to justice - and have no doubt my meaning of justice is death - we can never go back to a normal life. Retaliation on these people - whomever they be - must be swift and devestating.

May God have mercy on their souls for what they have done - and on ours for what we will do to them in return.....

[ShadoeWolfe]

On another note - Krynus sent me a note explaning the Nostradomas prediction is false. Here is the website explaining it:

False Prophecy (http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/hoaxes/predict.htm)

[Psykhopaf]

I was watching more on New York today... Some people think that the people who committed this crime (exc the ones in the plane) should stand trial for the crime... Asking for diplomancy to solve the problem...

Personally I think that diplomancy in well and truly a forgotten thing for this...

[Canker]

The latest polls show that an overwhelming 97-98% of Americans polled are for if not wanting sometype of military action/war to help resolve this tragedy. There hasn't been an outpouring of support and overwehelming call for blood since Pearl Harbor was attacked in 1941.

Regardless of anyone's personal opinions about how American's live, I'm not sure that the terrorist themselves are prepared for what might be coming on the horizon.

This is the calm before the storm people.... and as dramatic as it might sound "A sleeping giant has been woke, and he's not happy."

One Senator from Washington was said to have made a statement that in a nut shell meant that any military action was not ruled out. When asked "What about collaterail damage?" (meaning innocent civilians of what ever country these people came from) he was quoted as saying "So be it."

This is the worst since 1941 (Pearl Harbor) but even then that was a military strike on a military installation. Not innocent people doing their daily jobs. I will not be surprised if low level tactical nuclear strike was being considered. And though I do not relish the notion of more innocent people being caught in the crossfire.... it's what war is about and my country and my president have my full support even in that most extreme of actions.

Just my opinions and thoughts.

[Vereor]

I thought this bore repeating, not to anyone here mind you, as I am only "preaching to the choir", but I just thought this was interesting to read.

"This was from a Canadian newspaper, it is worth sharing.......

THE UNITED STATES
America: The Good Neighbor.

Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars! into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo
Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -! not once, but several times - and safely home again.

You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

Stand proud, America!"

[Canker]

I read that yesterday, Peter. smile.gif

Glad to be able to see that not all "countries" think of the USA as a money hungry, control empire.

This country has done alot of good for people of over the world. How much relief has ever been sent here by other countries when the USA needs help? Only once that I can recall and that was by France during the Revolutionary War. Long time since then. :(

[Goth Girl]

Personally, I don't think this is a time for looking to see who owes who favours... everyone in the world who gives a damn for human life should be trying their best to help right now, regardless of where you are or who you worship.

Let's all get through this together...

[Canker]

I agree Goth Girl! And my statement wasn't that anyone owes anything to the USA.
What my country has done in the past to help others (in my opinion) was to help people in general and shouldn't be used at a later time to guilt anyone into paying back a debt.

What I was refering to was the old stereotypes of countries....

English people being stuffed shirts,
French people being rude,
Middle east people being fanatics,
Americans being greedy and expectant of everyone around them.

All these things I believe to be false and a problem with modern day society.


Regardless of skin, religion or creed... if one is an A** then they're an A** :D

But as I've had the great opportunity to see on this board..... people of many creeds and all are the same....PEOPLE.

The same feelings, hopes and dreams of a life of safety, peace and fellowship. If only our world was a true reflection of the incredibly great people that I feel fortunate enough to have chatted with and grown to love from this board... what might we have then? :cool:


From me to all of you here.... You are all a special breed and the makers of a better tomorrow. Ok that might sound corny but it's true. tongue.gif I just feel fortunate to have to come to know a little about you all. smile.gif

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-13-2001 08:54 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Canker ]</font>

[Ema]

I agree GG. And lets not all forget either... that even though this is a horrible thing that has happened to the US, we are not the only ones who have had to deal with terrorism. Many, many other countries have had their innocents murdered by terrorists, we are not alone in this.

On another note, I haven't been watching the tv very much, as I generally don't being a radio listener or book reader at home, too hard to see 24/7 what has happened, but something made me watch before I came here. Something that one of the stations played...

The Changing of the Guards at Buckingham Palace. I am not ashamed to say I cried watching that, watching another country paying tribute to the souls dead or still missing in this country, a country who has also seen the horrible effects of terrorism.

Thank You Great Britian

[Nathan]

This is interesting...

The eagle on the Great Seal of the United States usually faces the olive branches, representing peace, but during war, it is changed to face the arrows and the branches fall away.
http://www.federalreview.com/warseal.jpg

During The President's first address, the flag on screen right was the Great Seal and it was folded in such a way as to show only the arrows.

Cool, huh?

btw, Canker-- http://www.brianlumley.com/ubb/icons/icon14.gif

[Vereor]

Are you sure about that Nathan? When I went to www.FederalReview.com (http://www.FederalReview.com) it looked as if that was just a political cartoon. Although it would be interesting if it really did change. I tried to find anything about that, and the only thing I could find was that the Head used to point to the arrows, but that Truman had it changed to look at the branches to represent that a President should always be looking towards peace. He also had 48 stars added to represent the states at the time and to represent that the President is the commander of the military since he thought no General would ever get that many stars. I thought all that was interesting, but didn't find anything else. You would think I would have been able to find more info.

[Nathan]

Hmph!

Guess I should check my sources, huh? I didn't even go to the website to investigate. I just thought it was cool.

I did however take a look back at the tape I made of the President's first speech, (I had to work that day so I recorded like 7 hours of coverage) and whether it's coincidence or not I don't know--but it was folded just as this person said it was. smile.gif

Even if it isn't done this way...it's a cool idea. smile.gif

EDIT--okay, I asked the guy that gave that info. We'll see what he says. :D

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-14-2001 05:07 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Half-Mast ]</font>

[Nathan]

Peter--This (http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/arrows.html) is the only other info I was able to come up with. Make of it what you will. smile.gif

[The Bloody Lady]

Canker......well said sweets

i agree with you all, the 21st century does not allow for prejudice of any kind, well in my mind anyways, we are all one and we all help each other

big hugs to everyone for having such good thoughts

smile.gif

[Mike C]

As most of the world was, I was stunned by the events of September 11th. I've read these posts and there really isn't much for me to add, you've all made wonderful and true comments. I will add that America is a very strong nation, and our way of life is an example that the civilized world has recognized as a model to be copied. With the patriotism I've witnessed the last few days, and the incredible support from the other nations of the world; I have the utmost confidence that WE will show our attackers exactly what makes our way of life so great, and WE will make the best of this terrible situation, and WE will continue to lead by example with our recovery, and WE will not let these attacks go unpunished.

Thank you,
Mike

[Psykhopaf]

Well it looks like the good O'l US of A is at war... I hope they wipe these muppets out... It will make it a better place...

[Lady Marie]

In spite of out geographical differences, as a group we share at least one redeeming quality: Our love of horror, and holding our Master high above all of his peers. True horror erupted beyond the bounds of fiction on September 11, 2001. Now, we can all read the newspapers if we wish to stimulate our deepest emotions (i.e.: fear, unbridled rage, inundating sorrow). Nothing could be as frightening to read as the media is preparing for us, unless you read THE REVELATION of Saint John The Divine. Brian's work has become, for me, a blessed escape, to spend an hour or two in captivating fiction, when I can no longer cry. Thank you for your prayers and words of sentiment and encouragement, Mr. Lumley, Silky, Shadow, you wonderful mods, and all of our beautiful friends across the pond. Let us embrace these kindred spirits and enjoy our common quest.
Much Love,
Donna

[Psykhopaf]

There was something on the news today about the Taleban having 2 nukes pointed at Us and the USA. Wether this is true who knows... But its pretty clear... Let a United Army go in to Afganistan and wipe the Taleban of the face of the map. Damn they might even get thier country back. It's been said in certain area's that this is a religious war... The Scum vs Islam... Funny I thought is was a war against Terrorism... Not like I care about religion... But it was only a matter of time before something about Terrorism was done.

Yeah I know it won't wipe it out fully but by hell it will make other muppets think about it... These attacks make the IRA look like Saints...

I have no doubt there will be humanitarians saying... "Lets talk about it and find a peaceful solution." Screw that.

Kill, Main, Burn & Destroy...

Psykhopaf

[The Bloody Lady]

Creech

i think what you're saying is wrong, i am in no doubt that what these people did was horrible and a dire tragedy but two wrongs do not make a right, if u wipe out the taliban, you wipe out afghanistan, they are all over the place, and many more people will be killed than necessary, why do you think they are fleeing for the borders...because they know that their lives are in short span


i don't think anyone will feel better about it if it happens, and as u said, it won't wipe them all out, not even half....

killing innocents is not the answer and again i will state that the people who have alredy lost their lives, well...i'm truely sorry but somehow i don't think that even they would want anyone else to go thru what they did, may their souls rest in peace.

[Psykhopaf]

What other solution is there? Don't say diplomacy... Mass Genoside... Lets lower ourself to that level. They don't have a problem wae killing innocent people... Why the hell should we? Let the west drop the holier than thou attitude... We as a race are Hunter/Killers.

Don't the real afgans deserve their own country without a bunch of muppets running it... They are what gives Islam a bad name...

[DaveStrorm]

First let me say that I consider all the main posters / moderators on this board to be good people. People that I trust and would be proud to call friends even though I've only met 5 of you.

This whole terrorist problem is a very tricky subject and minds as great as all of ours (maybe some greater :D well at least than mine) have tried to find answers to this for ages. This has been an ongoing debate at my workplace (as I'm sure it has been everywhere) and people go back and forth on it because it is so complicated and also because of the emotion it brings out in all of us.

I think the problem boils down to this: How do we stop the terrorists with a minimum of lives being lost?

The hardest part is deciding which is better: 1) Killing innocent people in order to have a greater chance of eliminating the terrorists, or 2) Not killing the innocents and worsening the chance of eliminating the terrorists or prolonging the elimination of the terrorists.

Is the number of innocent people killed in option 1 by the "non-terrorists" greater or less than the number of innocent people killed in option 2 by the terrorists?

I think the bottom line is that no "good" people want ANYONE to die but want the terrorists stopped. Myself included. However nice an idea this may be, I think it is naive. If the terrorists aren't stopped they will continue to kill innocent people. If someone stops them most likely they will have to kill innocent people to do it. I don't like this and I hope I'm wrong.

I just hope that whatever decision gets made by the people in power to make it turns out to be the best one.

Mean people suck. :(

[Canker]

I mean this in the most nice way possible but I think you all forget one simple fact.....
War is horrible and no matter what side...innocent's will die.
My suggestion is ...get used to it. I don't mean that sarcasticly but it's just a fact. For us all (majority of the world) we live in societies, though different in some regards, are based on the fact that we don't have to look over our shoulders wondering if someone is out to kill or hurt us.

Truth is that without the sacrifices made by people that came before us...we would not have that PRIVILEDGE. Notice I cap'd that because that's just what it is... a priviledge, not a right. If nature had it's way there would be a lot less of us around that we have and that's due to rules and laws set by society.

Now as of late I drive my truck with a flag on it to show my love and apprieciation of my country and what's been done for me to have the life that I do have. Regardless of which country we hail from I think we can all agree that we are fortunate to have what we have because of that country (the one which one comes from) and who bled and sacrificed to get it to where it's at.

Ok I'm off on a rant here. :D Let me get back on track.

War is terrible no matter when and where. It's always been that way always will. We've all been "de-sensitized" to that fact. Sort of like eating beef but not having to care or be concerned with what the animal had to go through. (such is life I guess)

But I believe for the future of the world and the safety of us all in it, it's well past time to try to end terrorism.

Now maybe this is an emotional response since I happen to be American then I apologize in advance but if it takes a war on terrorism and the people that support and hide the offenders then so be it. If not where will it end?

The Louvre, Buckingham Palace, Empire State Building....what is next? Which country and how many more innocents need to die to make us all hunt these losers down and stop them?

Now I love you all and respect all your opinions but I'll never agree to "turning the other cheek" so that I can have that one slapped too. (Old saying= Fool me once shame on you...Fool me twice shame on me.)

Just my opinion...don't hate or dislike me for it. I just feel that we all have lost to much potential in the last weeks to individuals that are just trying to make a statement and hide it behind saying "it's a holy war". It's not a holy war. It's a statement. No God is that cruel and merciless. He gave us free will and left that to us humans to do.

And the people that are leaving Afghanastan in fear of an air strike...good for them! Because if I lived there and had no involvement I'd get out of the way too. Good for them to know what's right and wrong and not to support what's wrong.

War is awful....ask the ones that fought from 1941-1945. They truly know and have more or less kept their pain to themselves.
Bottom line... innocents die. No way around it and I'll morn them after it's over. But terrorism needs to be stopped and it needs to get done. Shame on us for not trying and watching more people die by these same groups I say.

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-18-2001 09:03 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Canker ]</font>

[Nathan]

Back in the early '90's we had a war in which our main concern (other than the defense of an innocent country from the senseless violence of a madman) was to kick severe ass while at the same time preserving the lives of not only our own soldiers, but those of innocent civilians as well.

We basically achieved that goal but...it didn't work. That mofo is still there and just as mad as ever, if not worse. I would bet money he even had a finger or two in this, if not his whole hand...or both hands!

We are going to do this because it needs to be done...not because we like it or condone it. Nobody wants this. There's just no way around it.

Again, Canker...your words are (IMSHO) true and spoken very eloquently, I think. The innocent people who do not believe in this sort of violence will flee from Afghanistan. And even some who do believe in it will flee. That's what these people do...attack, run away, and hide...chickenshi*s! :mad:

Which brings us to Davestrorm's point. It's a "no win" situation.

War just sucks. :(

[Canker]

True Nathan War is terrible and I have heard many people compare what might happen to what did happen in the Persian Gulf. I personally would caution people from doing that to be honest.

My feeling is..... and please do not think bad of me when I say this.... that the Persian Gulf War was a video game compared to wars of the past. It was fought on open ground mostly and fought from planes equipped with video footage. This in my opinion is not how this war and definitely not like past wars have been fought.
You want to see what it's going to be like? Watch Band of Brothers on HBO... watch Saving Private Ryan. That's what it's like I would assume fighting door to door, house to house, window to window. Total chaos and unknown bloodshed.

I'm not a "glass half-empty" person. I just am a realist. If a ground war erupts from this, mark my words it won't just be the ones attacked that incurr heavy losses. The soldiers are aware of that fact I just feel that the common civilian in America and possibly elsewhere in what's called the "civilized world" have lost that view due to certain technology that allows for striking from afar.

That being said I still believe that something needs to be done militarily. I would just caution people to be ready for what might happen so that we all don't seems so shell shocked if alot of "our boys" get hurt or killed while doing their jobs as soldiers.

Hopefully we can then constrain, if not eliminate, terrorism as a whole. I mean really people.....flying planes into office buildings, blowing up embassies, loping grenades at school kids....enoughs enough. I for one said that some type of task force needs to hunt these offenders down when that plane blew up over Scotland. Wasn't that our wake up call?

[Ema]

I cannot believe this... you all have turned a post that was started out of love and support for the people.. ALL people in this world involved in the after-effects of terrorism and turned it into a post of hate and war.

Appalling...

[Canker]

No offense meant Ema.....

I just feel that that to live in peace under the olive branch we sometimes need to sling a few arrows.

Maybe a few of us, myself included, have taken this to an emotional level. If so and it's offensive to some than I apologize. I for one knew some of the people on AA that hit the first tower. I wasn't close with them but knew them and feel saddened by their loss.

I feel that I've made some good friends here and I'd hate to see anyone you suffer from "turning the other cheek".

So from my view I've just had enough with watching people be victims. In the most basic view we are all one of two things in life.... a survivor who adapts and does what is necessary to live or we're a victim.

Again... if I've offended anyone then I'm sorry. Maybe the thread is getting to emotional and too political. Maybe it needs to be locked. I'll leave that up to Dave to decide.

[Jason of Khem]

First time I've been able to add to this thread.

My deepest sympathies to the victims, relatives and friends of this cowardly attack and praise to the heroism of the rescue services.

This act will not go unpunished by Allied Forces of the Free World.

It's about time we put an end to the unfinished business from 91 and anti-Western fanatics in general.

Jason

[Nathan]

I think it's important for people to talk about the way they feel about these things. Who better to talk to and share your views with than some of your friends?

The first few postes were about concern and prayers. It's been different since about the fourteenth post though. And the topic title is "New York." That is still what is being discussed.

It was inevitable that this thread would become the discussion ground and possibly even a venting ground for what people are feeling about all this.

If this is appalling, then just about every single conversation in the world right now is the same.

It's happening and it's appalling...but it is happening and people need to discuss it. If the thread is closed, I will be extremely dissappointed. I value everyone's opinion here, and have even gained insight into my own chaotic thoughts by some things that have been said by you all, both pro and con.

War just sucks. :(

[Storm]

I for one feel very torn on the issue of retaliation.

On the one hand I am desperate to see the evil b£$&ards that have done this punished - and severely. I struggle to think of a punishment to fit the crime!

But on the other hand I don't think that war is the answer. I'm all for an international coalition dedicated to the eradication of terrorism, but I just don't think that military force will achieve that. Even if military strikes succeeded in eliminating every know terrorist and their organisations it still wouldn't eliminate the problem. At best it would buy us some time, but you can't win a war against an enemy that hasn't become your enemy yet. By that I mean even the deaths of every major terrorist and their supporters will only fuel the fire of the next generation of these physcos who are even more anti-west due to the "martyrs" who have perished in these retaliation strikes. It is also impossible to identify every person in the world who is or has the potential to be a terrorist, they can come from any country, background and religion.

What has happened is tragic beyond measure and right now everybody wants revenge, including me - big time! But surely it is our ability to move away from retaliations like this and embrace resolutions that don't involve the spilling of blood that will eventually bring us to the world peace that we so crave. As they say - there's more than one way to skin a cat - or terrorist!

N8 you are sooo right, war does suck
:(

[Psykhopaf]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ema:
I cannot believe this... you all have turned a post that was started out of love and support for the people.. ALL people in this world involved in the after-effects of terrorism and turned it into a post of hate and war.

Appalling...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah maybe I did do that but I lost a cousin in this damn attack... Don't talk to me about love and support... All I want is someone to answer for this... If it means blood is shed so be it...

I believe USA and the rest of the World need to stamp their authority on this situation.... Back out now... It will get worse... Talking solves nothing... Ireland for example... (Sorry Vavara... best one I could think of)

Oh and by the way this is the real Paul Davis... Yeah I am a out and out Evil B*****.

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-19-2001 07:03 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Psykhopaf ]</font>

[Lady Rissa]

Like everyone, I will always remember where I was when I found out what happened. I was at work, Adelphia, the local cable company, answering phones. A regular morning. Then I turned to talk to a co worker, and I will never forget her face. It was a combination of shock, fear and sadness. All she could do was point to the tv on the wall. I looked up, and saw the headline, 2nd plane hit the World Trade Center. The 1st thought that came to mind was was who and why. As I watched, our phones became silent, mainly because everyone was at home watching the same thing. The headlines continued to roll across the screen, 50,000 people worked there, constant images of the 2nd plane hitting tower 2 over & over again, until, unthinkably, the 1st tower fell. There was an audible gasp that went thru the room, and the sound of my co workers silently sobbing. Then the 2nd tower fell and we didn't think it could get worse. The few calls I received, I had to break the news to my customers. One customer had a daughter who worked there. I don't know if she made it or not. All of this in NY, then the Pentagon and another plane down in PA. It really made me see what is important in life.
Friday, Pres. Bush declared it a day of mourning. While driving into work, I saw more American flags up and at half mast then I had ever seen before, not even on the 4th of July. I felt such a connection with the people around me. Not just with Americans, but with other people around the world who were as shocked and outraged at the events that occured that Tuesay. Watching the leaders of other countries standing up with the USA, feeling our pain and wanting to make teh people responsible pay. For the 1st time, the UN pretty much said, "An attack on the USA is an attack on then entire UN, and we will not take it lying down". Ok, I'm putting it in my own words, but I think you get the meaning.
Lastly, I would like to thank, on behalf of everyone in the US, all of those other countries, nationalities, and people who are being supportive, in spirit if nothing else. Believe me, I know I appreciate it.
Now, we need to come together, and clear the Earth of the horrible people who are responsible for not only this terrorist act, but all other acts in the past. I'm not saying we should go on a killing spree, for that would make us no different from them if even 1 innocent life is taken, but I feel that we need to take care of this once and for all. I hope that all of the civilized world leaders can come to an agreement on how to remove this evil from the innocent.
Thanks for letting me get this out.

[Storm]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psykhopaf:

Oh and by the way this is the real Paul Davis... Yeah I am a out and out Evil B*****.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Firstly Creech I'm really sorry to hear about your cousin m8. The needless loss of life resulting from these attacks is something that is on my mind a lot and to be honest it's hard to deal with.
Secondly IMHO I don't believe anybody on this board is an Evil B******. I've not met any of you yet, but I have "chatted" to quite a few of you on the chat room, I've read your posts and seen the pictures. What I'm saying is that from what I know of everybody here you're all a bunch of fantastic people and I'm really glad that I've become part of this community. The horrific attacks of just over a week ago inevitably raise very strong emotions in all of us and I don't think that expressing them makes you evil.
I said in my post yesterday that I'm not sure that a war is the answer and I'm not, but I want to clarify that, I don't want to see more innocent people die, be they American, British or Afghan, I don't want to see more needless deaths of innocent people. Saying that though the news this morning is focusing heavily on the military build up and thoughts are that we are now only a matter of days away from the first strike. So be it, if we're gonna do this then I pray it is the right decision and I pray that we get the b******s that did this - all of them.

Jason

[Vavara the Hag]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Psykhopaf:



Talking solves nothing... Ireland for example... (Sorry Vavara... best one I could think of)

Oh and by the way this is the real Paul Davis... Yeah I am a out and out Evil B*****.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul,no need to apologise,I agree with you wholeheartedly.I know on a personal level what its like to live under the constant threat of fear and terrorism..a few years ago I had a cousin shot in the face at point blank range in the name of religion.

What I'm trying to say is if what you said makes you an evil ba****d then I AM TOO because I agree that it's time to wipe out the muppets responsible for this as after all,the longer it's left,all the more innocent people will lose their lives to these terrorists anyway.

Jen

[Psykhopaf]

I must be EVIL... Oh sorry I'm appauling :D But this thread is about hate and war. I Hate what happened and I want War I want them to die... Oh I really want them to die... I am afraid your rebel fleet won't solve it :D (Oppps wrong forum) I'm afraid harsh language will not solve it....

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-20-2001 05:56 AM: Message edited 3 times, lastly by Psykhopaf ]</font>

[Canker]

Creech you are too funny. tongue.gif

I'm not a "war monger" nor do I relish the thought of more people dieing. I just feel that this terrorism stuff must end or greatly lessen atleast if we can't stop it. Diplomacy will not end it, turning the other cheek will not end it, wishing and hoping for the best will not help it.

Do some of you know of a comedian named Dennis Miller? Now he might not be my favorite person but he did say something once that, to me, made alot of sense. He was talking about serial killers but it applies to this situation as well. I can not recall his exact words but in effect it was that there are billions of people in this world and sooner or later we are all going to be made aware of some really sick, demeanted, evil people being amongst us. Once that has been established and their crimes confirmed then it's time to "thin the herd". Don't put them in jail and support them the rest of their lives, don't put them on T.V. and make them the center of attention..... put them out of their misery so that normal people that are not out to harm others can get on with their lives without fear of physco's. :D

It might sound extremely cold of me and I'm sorry but if someone is that evil maybe we should do what the old russian gov. would do with their serial killers and murders? Stand them over a drain and put a bullet in their head. No cameras, no publicity, no big show of it. Then others that would commit crimes like these would think twice when they realize they're not even going to get their 15 minutes on the T.V.

I am in agreement with you Ema that this thread did start out as a post for compassion and support. Very true. But it's like "the stages of realization" or something like that.

1.) Denial
2.) Sorrow
3.) Anger
4.) Acceptance

Something like that... I can't remember them all :D I think there are 5 stages tongue.gif

We all will get through this tragedy. It's what we do from here and how we react that defines up as people and individuals. smile.gif

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-20-2001 07:53 AM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Canker ]</font>

[masinger]

Greetings from battered New York.

First, I'd like to thank everyone here for their warm wishes and kind thoughts and words. Believe me when I say they are truly appreciated.

Second, I want to assure everyone that "Americans" do not, in a body, blame "Muslims," in a body, for what happened. Just as you ask us not to judge all who follow Islam because of the actions of a few, do not judge all Americans because of the actions of a few. Remember, please, that many of us have been rubbed raw of heart and soul in the last week, and that out of anger and despair people will often say and do things that they would in a saner moment reject and regret.

Many of us have had our world shattered to the core. And I'm not talking as much of those who lost family and friends, who are probably too busy grieving to focus on much of anything else, as I am of people in the bulk of the country, who lived in a certain innocence that they have now lost. It was easy, I think, to believe that America is (was) invulnerable, especially if you come from a part of the country that is not diverse. It was easy to believe that our way was the only way, the right way, God's way (God help us). For those of us who live in the big cities, well, we've always known that wasn't true.

For people of a certain age, history is marked by certain dates. Where Were You When is the question. Where were you when Kennedy was killed? Where were you when we landed on the moon? Where were you when Challenger blew up?

Now we have a new date. A day no one in New York over the age of 10 will ever forget. A day when our city was stopped. The city that never sleeps, the city that runs around the clock. Stopped.

And now we pick up the pieces. Literally and figuratively, we have to figure out how to go on. With over 5,000 assumed dead in New York City alone, (and I am not forgetting the hundreds dead in the Pentagon and the plane in Pennsylvania, New York is a big city that has become a small town. Not everyone has lost everyone, but everyone knows someone who has. And everyone knows someone who, but for a twist of fate, would have been there.

Me? Well, I never got to work that day. Because it was primary election day and I'd gone to vote after dropping my kid off at school, I was running late. And I was completely unaware that by the time I got on the subway the first plane had already hit--well, I knew there'd been a crash, but the third-hand report I had heard made it sound like a little commuter plane or a Cessna or something else small.

And underground, everything was normal, if slower than usual, until about midtown. Where we just sat. After, I realized that the system was shut down when the first tower fell. But I didn't know what was going on until I hit the street, in Times Square, and I saw the giant news screen which showed the tower (I thought it was towers, still) in flames. I was reading the news zipper and watching the picture when the second tower collapsed. Like the hundreds of people around me, I gasped and began to cry. People were moaning, "Oh, no, oh, God."

And I started to walk home. There was no rational thought possible. I simply had to get off the island of Manhattan and get home as best I could, right then. The only thing I stopped for was to buy a big bottle of water.

And I walked, along with thousands of others. North and east, and then out over the East River on the 59th Street Bridge, thinking, "please let them not come back for the bridges." Looking south as we went over the river, seeing the smoke of the funeral pyre--you knew there were thousands dead, right from the start, it didn't matter what any news reports said--it was a chilling, stilling sight. People were praying as they walked. At the high point of the bridge, I recited as much of the Mourner's Kaddish as I could remember.

I began walking at around 10:30 AM. At around 1 PM, my cell phone began to work and I reached my mother, who came and picked me up at a spot which on a normal day would have been about a 45 minute walk from my home. That day, given that I'd already walked around 8 miles, that last 45 minutes would have taken a lot longer.

Since schools were closing, we went and picked up my kid.

My feet are still healing--I was wearing my second-most comfortable pair of sneakers, and got pretty badly blistered on some toes. I can't wear closed shoes yet, but hope to in a few days.

Last Friday a few of us went to services at a synagogue near the office. Which was cathartic but horrible, as the sanctuary was full of people who had lost family, friends, and employees. And we lit candles, that Friday night.

American flags have blossomed throughout the city.

People I know have volunteered for everything from taking people rendered homeless into their homes to drawing blood for the blood banks to helping dig out and dust in the areas away from Ground Zero. We've donating things when things were called for, and now we're donating money. Tor has established a donation matching fund and will be matching every dollar donated to disaster relief by employees (which is where my tax rebate is going). Our children have been making thank you cards for the police and firefighters.

If I can, I'll go back to temple next week, for Yom Kippur, and I'll think of how lucky I am to be safe and well and not have lost anyone in the attack. And I'll say a prayer for those who were not so lucky.

[Psykhopaf]

Well I feel I should apologise for my posts and general behavour in this thread... SOrry peeps... It Wont Happen Again

[The Bloody Lady]

Creech

I don't believe there is any need to apologise, what happened totally knocked everyone out of sorts, it horrified and frightened everyone, not just Americans but people all over the world.

You suffered a loss to of which i'm very sorry to hear, i'm deeply sorry for everyone who lost someone and for all those who lost their lives.

Perhaps like someone else i know, you think i'm naive in not wishing for war, well, i can wish for it not to happen but it doesn't mean my wish will be granted. I hate war, my country was in one for 8years, i lost 2 uncles through execution and battle in this war, my country lost over a million 14-18 year old boys and even now the ruins and devestation is quite visible, so you see why i hate war, however i'm not naive, i know that if its going to happen, it will... :(

I'd like to wish the Jewish people a very Happy New Year as i believe it is next week and i hope that one day, there will more of an understanding between people of different religions and race, its a shame coz we all have so many wonderful things to learn from each other.

I urge anyone out there who reads this not to have any hate toward Islam and the people that practice, if you must hate, hate the governments, hate the fundamentalists.........the normal people just want to be left alone and left in peace to practice their own beliefs and not push them on anyone else, i say this in defence of the people, not of religion as i do not practice myself but remember most muslims out there ( not the ones the media choose to show you) are as equally scared and horrified as anyone else.

Heres wishing total global love!

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 09-23-2001 06:17 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Scarlet oHorror ]</font>

[Tentacled Master]

And we have come around full circle, to discussions of tolerance and love. That, on its own, just makes me think that the terrorists have lost this battle. Many people died in this tragedy, for no better reason than that someone disagreed with someone else's politics. Loss of life is never justifiable. But regardless of whether or not massive retaliation is engaged, we can still talk to one another of love and peace, and go on with our lives; sadder than we were, and without many loved ones, but we go on. You know what that means? That means we've already won.

[Nathan]

I don't have the CD, (unfortunately) so I can't post it there...but everyone sing along! Seriously, now! smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'd like to build the world a home
And furnish it with love
Grow apple trees
And honey bees
And snow-white turtle doves

I'd like to teach the world to sing
In perfect harmony
I'd like to hold it
In my arms
And keep it company

I'd like to see the world for once
All standing hand in hand
And hear them echo
Through the hills
Ah, peace throughout the land<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Backer - Cook - Davis - Greenaway

And have a Coke smile.gif

[Nathan]

I know there are some in the UK (at least according to CNN and MSNBC) who don't necessarily approve of Tony Blair's strong involvment in this whole affair, but I just gotta say how impressed I've been by the man. Maybe even more so than GWB, which is saying something! (I really thought GWB would turn into a babbling idiot, but he's held up quite well!)

Anyway, Tony Blair really made an impression on me with his words the day this all happened and his words yesterday were even more heartening to me.

What do you guys over there think about it?

[Vasagi]

I think...

This isn't a sounding board for ideas other than those relating to BL. No ranting about government conspiracies, government policies, big business conspiracies or any conspiracies other than those in BL's books. This includes any variations of these things, such as actions taken by government, actions taken by big business, or any other decisions or policies taken by any of the aforementioned entities.

[Lagula Longarm]

I don't want to start a political debate, this is not a question or statement on which political party is the best, but....

IF Tony Blair, stands by what he has said on terrorism then I believe the vast majority of us in the UK, are firmly behind him, the world is now at war with Terrorists, and about time too.

BUT we have all heard this sort of retoric before, and after a little while the politicians jump on the next bandwagon for public approval.

I believe that with the resources of the USA & UK, we now have an excellent oppurtunity to fight terrorism on a global scale.

BUT this also means that we stop supporting so-called 'freedom fighters', and expell any persons from our countries who have/had links with any terrorism groups.
Our 'freedom fighters' are other people's terrorists.

I personally support any action that will eradicate the cowardism which hides behind the mask of terrorism.

[Canker]

I agree with you Deano. Our (the worlds) best foot forward should be put out there to get rid of terrorism and people that support it but like you said.... It's been said and tried before.

Let's hope that more is done this time around then in the past.

Lord Luvaduk..... Though I respect your opinion (and believe me we all have our own as well and you know what they say about that) :D I do not share your view.

I default to the webmaster, Shadoewolfe, to decide what is and is not appropiate here on the board.

If not I would thin this thread would have been closed or deleted by now. As such I would assume that it's fine like it is.

Side note= I know you're getting a kick out of all this you old dog, Shadoe ;) :D :D

Either way, my opinion has been voice and no need to repeat myself. smile.gif

[Vasagi]

Canker,

I also defaulted to the webmaster's view. I expect that's why I quoted from the Rules regarding messageboard usage that you should have read when you registered. I'm surprised you didn't pick up on that and can only conclude that you didn't read them. I respect your right to both not read the rules, and to ignore them.

[ShadoeWolfe]

Actually - Pote is right.

I am closing this thread now..since it is going off topic. The original post was about New York , and what happened there. Our thoughts and feelings and reactions. Now it is going into what we are doing about it after the fact...different idea totally and one not supported by this board. I am sorry to close it or quiet anyone's views, but all it will do is start an argument because of the subject matter.

Whew! Long sentence. Topic closed.