Mass Debate

[Helmet Head]

Right, had an idea kids and kidettes, not sure if it will work but I’ve run it past Tops and he reckons it’s good so I’m going to give it a try anyway.

The basic premise of this is that someone will come up with a topic or question and give their view on it and you lot basically throw in your views/arguments for and against backing them up with facts and points from the books and views in general.
The question must be something taken from the worlds of our beloved Mr Lumley, but it can come from any of his books or short stories.

The winner of the Debate is the person who can come up with the best explanation of their view on the subject citing reasons evidence etc that the most people agree with.

Obviously we’ll need someone to judge on this so myself and Tops will decide who, based on their argument, is the Master Debater, Then that person will have to come up with a question to be debated and so on and so forth.
At the start of each question the person does not have to give their views straight away and can wait till later on to throw their views and reasons into the melting pot.

I’m hoping that this will become quite a hot bed of conversation and arguments, it may not though and might just shrivel and die but nothing would ever happen if we didn’t give things I try.

So who is the Master Debater???…Only time will tell!!!

Right, well I think I should stick in the first question, it’s a bit of an oldie but I know plenty of people have differing views on it so it should be a good one to start with and get the proverbial ball rolling so to speak.

The Wamphyri leech is it really EVIL???

So over to you Ladies and Gentlemen… ;)

[ February 16, 2004, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[Dan Greyskull]

Humm...the Wamphyri leech good or evil?
The way I see it is that the leech is evil. Here's how I see it... the leech expands its host's human emotions such as lust, jealousy and Hatred...this WILL change the most decent host into a very nasty and evil piece of work to say the least!!!! These emotions that are magnified would encourage other leeches (Wamphyri) to be at war with one another (for territorial reasons, rival's or just jealousy for one another) which not only causes problems that would lead to war amongst each other but will also encourage them to attack the humans to strenghan their armies.
Also, unlike other species that would never over-hunt in order to keep an equal balance, the Wamphyri would always over hunt, take all they could find and use it to feed and add to its army, and with a good amount of Wamphyri on Starside, this would increase wars and have its toll on the surrounding area in life.
Its thirst for blood is one major downside for the human tribes aswell as the Wamphyri - in Blood Brothers we find out that because of its,lust for blood, the Wamphri set up a tithe system due to the shortage of human tribes..which in the end made them a very weak race of Wamphyri in the East side of Starside.

As a short - the leeches are so evil, that they themselves are their own worst enemies.

[Dan Greyskull]

Now some will comment on what I just said about the 'expanding its host's emotions' part and could say that its not the leech's fault but the host's as its their emotions - before they do, i'll prove that thats not the case..
We learn that from Brian's books that when a host is taken, it goes through a 'battle' with the leech - Harry went through it...and we saw how 'EVIL' the leech was in 'Deaspawn' as we read about that scene in Harry's garden when Harry almost lost control of his battle with his leech and almost killed the Minister Responsible's mind spy who's job it was to spy on Harry (sorry - cant remember his name!)! And Harry was a good man, he would never kill!

This is just one example!

[Helmet Head]

Have you never over eaten Dan???

[Dan Greyskull]

Urm?!?!?!?!!? Of course! Mucky D's is far too close!!! but seriously... whats your point?!!!!!!

[Helmet Head]

You said that the leech is responsible and there fore evil, where as it seems to me that over indulging and wasting natural resources is a human trait anyway.

[ February 16, 2004, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[Sophie]

But Harry had killed before he was turned into a Wamphyri, many of a time and he wasn't shy about killing either! If anything it just increased his arrogance (which pisses me right off through the books) to a maximum. I thought he was getting too big for his boots by the end of dead speak, and him being foolish enough to let his guard down around Feathor's grave shows this, and when he was turned into a wamphyri I just thought it was perfect, knocked him down a whole lot of pegs. I think Harry was perpetually obsessed with the wamphyri, which makes him a great host for a leech.

In answer to helm's leech question. I don't like to define things by good and evil, because I those are shallow terms, and just give an easy way out to pigeon hole things, and the excuse to not really think. There are many shades of gray, and ambiguities surrounding everything, including the leeches who are the most ambigious of all, I think they are not evil(if you're going to use those terms), because they are just acting out on what their nature tells them to do. If anything it is human nature which makes the wamphri what they are amplified by their leech. Humans kill, maim, hurt and rape each other, and treat animals like their dirt, and destroy our planet every day, like we own EVERYTHING. I think we are no better than the wamphri, and to think we are, and to think we have the right to wipe a species out or any species out or catagorise them as good/evil etc, is human arrogance. The human arrogance that was originally there is amplified by the leech, and this causes the Wamphri to be the ultimate arrogance. I see it as a paradox. If we didn't have the arrogance the Wamphyri wouldn't probably as been as they were.

But yeah I don't like the human race, can ya tell?
lol

Sophie

[Dan Greyskull]

Hummmm... there is alot of greed in human nature - BUT, we're talking about the world of sunside/starside that is the source of the Wamphyri - a different world to us, and not once in the vampire world book do we hear of greed within the tribes there, it is a totally different world Helm, its alot more 'wilder' out there and things are not settled down there as it is here.

[Helmet Head]

I don't think thats a factor though, their world has been held back and is behind in the sciences etc but that doesn't mean that the people don't act in a similar way to the people of our earth.
There are still murders/rapes and territorial disputes among the normal people of that world and they are only held back from a lot of that by the oppression of the Wamphyri, just because Brian never wrote about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
(What about the rape of Radu's sister by men of her own tribe or Arkis(might not be right)who would of handed over Zek and Jazz to Shathis for his own gain)

The Wamphyri in our world don't act any different to the ones from the source world, thats like saying that a child from a broken home is going to turn out worse than a child who has an ideal home background.
You just never can tell.

It's beside the point anyway the question is is the Leech itself EVIL???

[ February 16, 2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[Dan Greyskull]

Sophie, nice point about the leeches!! And im gonna agree with you on what you just said, its exactly right! they do increase its host's feelings - but - you said this about the human side 'Humans kill, maim, hurt and rape each other, and treat animals like their dirt, and destroy our planet every day, like we own EVERYTHING'

Maybe a little too honest (but its true!!) .....anyway, back to my point - what about the werewolf Wamphyri? like Clanker?!?! he wasnt all human 'more dog than man'

But he was just as bad.

[Dan Greyskull]

They're evil!!! im telling ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Nosgali Songsayer]

well....in general on average I would say that the human race in whole would consider anything or anyone evil that kills, enslaves, considers themselves better than us etc.... (i.e. hitler)


do I believe that the leech serves a higher power supernatural evil being? ...no


"have you ever wondered why it seems that evil you're attracted to"
~Slayer

[DC 1]

Good or Evil...How do you tell the difference.

The leech is a natural (Un-natural if you like) survivor and will do anything to ensure the survival and evolution of it's chosen host.

Like any other creature, survival is paramount to the leach and this may give it a rep for being evil.

But is it.... Is this not also a human trait. Even the process of finding a warm blooded (Mostly) creature as a host is a natural instinct in the leech. It does this out of survival. When it knows it is dying it will produce its egg as a last resort to ensure the survival of the species.With few exceptions, humans also have a basic survival instinct. You may believe that there is a line you would not cross to ensure your survival but until that time comes, you do not know for sure.

Remember that the Wamphyri kill mostly out of necessity, for food, for fuel, even to weaken the other Lords armies Just like the human race but they do not kill for fun only (not too often anyway).

The leach does give to it's host. It prolongs the life span, enables the host to heal quickly (most diseases anyway) but it does take in return.

Also, if you read the books, you will notice that the wamphyri are aware that they must not over indulge in their hunting. Hence the tithe system. Humans have been known to hunt a species into extinction.

So you tell me. Who is evil and what is your definition of evil

[Eeyore Skullguise]

The leech cannot be seen as evil or obviously as good because as mentioned before it is in their nature to be what they are and do what they do. For example take a cat, a lot of us love them, well I know I do, but when they are out at night they hunt even though they get fed at home buy gullible owners. We know that they hunt but don't question their innocence, why? well because it's in their nature and it's the same with the leech because they cannot help what way they were made( although the leech is not cute).

But lets not get off topic and get into a nature nurture debate. (I jest)

[Eeyore Skullguise]

Really good points DC i Agree with you. We as humans are meant to have free will but the leech seems to act purely out of instinct which tells us that the leech does not seem to have much choice in the matter. Humans are much more gruesome but what makes them sinister too is the fact that they have a handsome cocoon ( for want of a better word) to hide the hideous interior (although this does not include all humans) This mask that they can wear makes them equally if not more dangerous. This should tell you something why would the leech choose a human as their host in the first place? Think about it.

[Lupa the Ancient]

I reckon its about how you interpret Evil... Humans can be evil thats not in debate, we are conscious of what we do -- we have a choice. Now the leech is a creature of instinct, its a matter of survival - are Lions evil? are sharks evil? they can be killing machines but on a level of survival I would not call them evil.

The natural trait for the leech is to find a host, to find a symbiotic host to help it survive and grow. Its natural host is human ... it adapts and prospers for a very long time in humans - therefore in essence it just wants to survive - to do this it grows and fuses with the human body and psychie. The baser instincts that often are controlled come to the surface of humans, and the leechs influence breakdown our human controls. Evil deeds CAN then come to the fore but IMHO because of the weakness of humans not because the leech is evil ...

I see the leech as a parasite, but not fundamentaly EVIL .... Like all living creature it wants to survive, and it will stop at nothing to achieve that, but without the human conscience it would not be able to do CONSCIENCE evil deeds on its own....

I THINK THATS WHAT I MEAN!!??

[Lupa the Ancient]

... I've just read DC's post and I reckon he's put what I also think more eloquently!!!

[topol_sheap]

yeah, I think the leech is an innocent creature, and like others have said before it simply amplifies the mostly hidden dark side of humans, can you imagine if Hitler had a leech? A terrifiying thought.

I'm not going to get into this debate as I want to watch. And as some of you know this has been a very long debate that's been running for nearly a year and a half off the board!

Oh, The Helm never put a timescale on the debate, I think there should be a maximum on these things as they could go on forever, and then who would ask the next question? Would they get a chance? I reckon a week of posts is more than enough for a heated debate, all those in favour say "Aye", and continue the debate.

[Sophie]

Originally posted by DC:


So you tell me. Who is evil and what is your definition of evil Exactely, as I said in my post, I'm sick of people mindless pointing and saying "he's evil, she's evil, etc" They don't even think that good and evil most of the time is a matter of opinion and relative. A quick example is how the extremist muslims call the christians evil, because they don't follow their religious order, and the extremist Christians call the Muslims evil, and vice versa. (The mind boggles at Narrow minded views)

Anyway off subject slightly, I'll shut up now.

DC, your post was beautifully written btw smile.gif

Sophie

[ February 16, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Sophie ]

[Lupa the Ancient]

Yeh ... I reckon a weeks about right ... don't want to ramble on and on and on and on and on toooo much..... grin.gif

[topol_sheap]

Please people, keep off subjects like religion and politics - it'll cause problems... This isn't a forum to attack people.

[DC 1]

Maybe we can look at this another way.

Is the Leech evil?
Are Wamphyri Evil?
If they are, Why?

As I stated earlier, I believe the leech to be an organism purley focused on it's own survival at any cost. This, whilst unpleasant, is not necessarily evil.

Wamphyri. I think most would agree are evil incarnate. They are despicable creatures who are only interested in themselves above all others and their territory. They can only just live togeather but will always plot to better their get.

Now whilst the Wamphyri would not be without their leech, this begs the question is it the leech that make the Wamphyri evil and if this is so, then surely this makes the leech evil.

But hang on a second before you decide. What about Vampires. You know the other blood sucking abominations that do not have a leech. Look back at some of the story lines in the books. Surely the vampire lieutenants are as evil and despicable as their masters. Most of them would kill their own mothers for a chance at getting a leech.

They would kill just for the fun of it if they thought their masters would let them get away with it. But they do not have a leech yet.

So is it really the leech that makes the Wamphyri evil or is it something else inbred into the leech's host. The "I'm bigger and Stronger than you" mentality that humans have in abundance. Remember that there were Wamphyri who could, within reason, control their blood lust.

Maybe, just maybe, the leech is the innocent victim here. All it wants is a host to live inside. In return it will protect the host at all costs. It will enhance most of the senses but, if that host is already evil, hey, what does the leech care as long as it survives.

Ok, I will shut up now and let someone else say summit.

[Helmet Head]

First of all I’m going to make my stance clear, I believe the LEECH is EVIL incarnate.
I’m going to give you my first bit of evidence for the prosecution for you to chew over and then in mid-week I’ll give my final say on the matter, obviously this is only my opinion and therefore disputable.

First of all a lot of you have said that the leech is only obeying basic instincts and is relatively mindless and therefore only doing what comes natural to it, ergo not evil.
But I beg to differ; in Necroscope 3 the Source they have if you’ll remember a “mindless” leech in a tank.
Now the keeper of this abomination who’s name escapes me right now becomes infected by an egg that this thing releases, but the big thing is that to release it’s egg the leech overrides it’s prime basic instinct to feed, as blood and offal is pumped into the enclosure the leech ignores the food, something surely impossible in a creature that doesn’t think and is only governed by natural/unnatural instinct.

This to me points to a form of sly intelligence within the creature, this doesn’t mean it’s evil but surely you can see that it can’t be completely innocent either…

[ February 17, 2004, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[Lupa the Ancient]

... but surely it releases its egg to prolong its own existence, again a natural instinct for surival. The Leech certainly isn't a fluffy little misunderstood bunny rabbit, but I still believe the EVIL really kicks in when mixed with humans conscience.... the essence of the Wamphyri then transfers to the vampire - not just the leech.....

[DC 1]

I think the point about the leech in the tank is a good one. But I think you may have missed the point to this.

All this shows is that the leech is a parasite and needs to live in Symbiosis with another creature (the host).

Keeping it in a tank and feeding it every so often is not what the leech needs to survive. Like most other parasites, it needs a host to live off and grow to it's full potential.

By bringing forth it's egg it has only done what it is compelled to do to survive. This just reinforces the argument for the leech being totally ruthless in it's quest for survival and, IMHO, does not even slightly imply a sly intelligence.

[Dan Greyskull]

OK, just read all these post's - they're all valid points, I have to agree with Sophie, DC and Tops as well as many others. I guess I missed alot of these points said!

OK, so maybe the leeches are not evil, but are they slaves to their hosts? But two things that puzzles me is that we learn in the books that the 'host' has a battle with the leech which wishes to gain supremacy, and most of the Wamphyri had lost that battle...only Harry and a few others did not give in to it. Sooooo, if the leech is in control... then its not the human side at all, but the leech's...or am I wrong?
The second is DC's point in his last post - about the vampires....

Humm...a good topic indeed!!!!! smile.gif

[Lupa the Ancient]

Good point, but I think that the leech when joined with its host becomes a catalyst for our base emotions - as the leech evolves it takes on our traits also, and therefore the internal fight begins. Its all about the need for survival ... the leech will do anything to survive and if that means a greater influence of the host - then so be it.... but again does that make it evil

[Dan Greyskull]

there are different levels of survival...there's 'killing just for food' and then there's 'killing just for the hell of it' ...now going on what has been said, about the Wamphyri and their humand hosts. OK, point given about the human feelings that are magnified and resulting the lust, jealousy and Hatred to be increased, but what of the werewolves? they wernt human before, yet will still have the thoughts and feelings as the human hosts of the Wamphyri... if that makes sense!!! blush.gif

[Sophie]

Originally posted by Tops:
Please people, keep off subjects like religion and politics - it'll cause problems... This isn't a forum to attack people. Sorry tops was just trying to make the point that evil is a matter of opinion, didn't mean to offend.

Sophie

[Helmet Head]

So this basic creature out of instinct knew that when food was pumped into it's cage that valves would be opening allowing something small enough to get out and lead to the man on the outside?????

I think your going to have to grant the leech must have some form of intelligence...

As for it needing to reproduce so that it can go on, well I'm pretty sure that it can survive almost indefinatly even on a minimal diet.

[topol_sheap]

I might give you the intelligence thing, but it could have some form of esp power that knows when best to let an egg go.

Just a thought.

oh, and Sophie, no need for apologies, I was just stretching ;) It's just so easy to go OT (or OTT even ;) ) with politics and religion.

Tops

[Lupa the Ancient]

I think that the leech certainly does have some basic intelligence ... at least an understanding of what it NEEDS to do.... The ESP point is good, again think that this could be a basic trait - but whereas most humans don't use it, could be second nature to the leech?! ..and thats where the Wamphyri powers come from ... so many points to think about.

But maybe I'm moving away from the debate somewhat - Is the LEECH EVIL? None of the points made have changed my mind as yet ... I still say NO...

[topol_sheap]

and I still agree. I think it's instinct.

[Eeyore Skullguise]

There is one point that needs to be considered; how did the leech come to be, in the first place? can something be born of pure evil?

The leech will do anything to survive due to instinct but the sole purpose of it's survival is to destroy the human race. To me this seems a lot more personal than just using humans for food.

I am beginning to analyse the other side of the argument tongue.gif

[Eeyore Skullguise]

Sorry that was two points that needed to be considered blush.gif

[DC 1]

I do not think that the sole purpose of the leech is to destroy the human race.

The leech is getting a really bad rep here and I think we need to reconsider some of the points raised:

1. The leech does not kill anyone and may not directly cause anyone to be killed. This is done by whichever creature the leech has found as a host. whilst we all seem to agree that it heightens senses and emotions, this in itself is not a reason to find it guilty of attempted genocide.

2. The leech NEEDS a host. Whilst it may well be able to survive without one in a tank or wherever, it's basic requirements are to find a host, no matter what and to ensure that host survives as well. (Hence the longevity and the extra "powers").

3. Yes, the leech may have some type of sixth sense or esp. This would indeed help it in its quest for a host. After all, if an egg is on the move and it comes across a Wamphyri, it knows NOT to even try and take it as it's host. So this would indeed point to some type of sense or intelligence even.

4. We also know that if you are strong enough, you can subdue the leech. Zoltism is an example of still making your own choices (to a certain extent). If the leech was evil and all powerful then this would never happen. The bloodlust comes from the leech but this is only it's way of feeding. All creatures need food and the leech is no exception. Big cats eat red meat but no one has said they are evil.

5. I do not believe you can be born evil. I think this occurs through choice and/or circumstance and, to an extent, upbringing.
In the case of the leech, it's only thoughts are to feed and to survive. This is not evil but natural. Whilst the leech itself may be an unnatural creature it's instincts are certainly not.

At the end of the day, the question about whether the leech is good or evil is down to your own ideals about life and survival. The choices you make during your life dictate who and what you are. The leech does not seem to be able to make any choice other than to ensure it's survival and growth. Does this make it Evil?

[Helmet Head]

Right I think it’s time for my final say on the matter, once again this is only my opinion and therefore completely disputable.

At the beginning of the original loop and by this I mean Shaitan falling and Harry/Alex’s corpse falling into the swamp. (Books1-5)
Brian mentions that Shaitan is the product of the God mind casting out it’s dark side I.E. Shaitan, this defines Shaitan as pure EVIL he is the dark that must exist if we have light.

Now my point is Harry Keogh suffers throughout his entire life, suffering for our sins if you like, and before his mind explodes in a golden bomb burst it is explained to him that this has all been a test, an experiment and that he has past that test and been found worthy of migrating onto the next level.

So Harry goes through the same thing as the God mind and he is separated into two half’s one being all that was good about him and the other being his darker side, which is his flesh and Leech.

I believe that this then defines the vampire in him EVIL and is why Harry’s body and leech fall in the same place as Shaitan thereby sealing the loop.

[Eeyore Skullguise]

An excellent argument DC (as always) but I don't agree that the leech, unnatural as it is could possess natural instincts. I respect that the leech is just trying to survive, which is an natural instinct but what is it's sole purpose?
The Helm has answered that question.

My final view would be that the creator of the leech is evil but probably not the leech itself,however, this next point may suggest that the leech is as evil as it's creator. This evil creator (which is more than likely Shaitan) made the leech in his own image just like god made humans in his/her/it's own image.

[Eeyore Skullguise]

Sorry forgot to point out that Shaitan himself became one great big leech. Another point is that it seems to me too much of a coincidence that the leech was in the swamp at the same time that Shaitan fell. My point is that the leech was being used by it's creator to infect the human race and to corrupt any innocence left in the world and to infect Shaitan himself.

The leech is probably not evil but rather an instrument of evil.
(I just can't make up my mind it's not my fault that I can see both sides of every argument hmm and thats meant to be a good thing) :confused:

[DC 1]

Whilst I can agree with a lot of the comments, I would still suggest that the leech itself is not evil.

In it's single minded purpose to survive, it will posses/inhabit a host creature. The by product of this un natural match is, in itself utterly evil (Wamphyri).

The by product of the Wamphyri's need to feed and ensure it's leech's survival is also evil (Vampires)

And yes, some characters even sought a leech of their own for the power it would give them (Wratha for one).

But again, the leech did not make them evil. The evil was already inside them. The leech just heightened their ego and hatred for others etc. Whilst the leech needed the host, the host in turn became more and more reliant on the leech.

None of this would prove that the leech was evil. Some of the "evidence" might suggest that the leech could be evil but nothing at all proves this beyond any doubt.

And yes, the leech was made in the image of it's creator who most would agree was the pinnicle of evilness. But as man was made in the image of God, not all men are good. Some are evil beyond belief. So does this not also mean that something created by his evilness himself could not be good?

Again, evidence may point towards it POSSIBLY being evil but this has never been proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

I say unto you all, the leech is just a victim of circumstance and the Helms increasing harrasment. I believe that the Helm actually knows the leech is innocent but, just as he denied being a collector, he will deny this....for now!!!!!!

[Sophie]

I'm still going to say it's not evil (though I don't like using such black/white terms) For arguments say I'll say no. DC put it fantastically with saying it was the rot already in the hosts minds which was increased by the leech bond with the host. I think its jumping to conclusions to say that every creature born to this world(s)is considered natural, but the leech isn't included in this. The leech is no less flesh and bone as turtle or snake, no less natural, and because it is flesh and bone, I wouldn't rule it out for being considered natural. If it was a being that wasn't corporal and floated about like Harry does when he loses his first body smile.gif , I would say it isn't natural.

So because in my view the leech is natural(not a sentient being like a human), it couldn't be evil as anything that is natural only wants to survive as it's instinct tells it to. I view the leech with some intelligance, but only enough to survive. As the books demonstrate, the animals(foxes, wolves) that are used as hosts are considerabely less rabid (lol bad pun sorry), and terrible, than when a human is taken by a leech. Which would logically conclude, that it's more evil in mens hearts, than in the leech.

Sophie

[Helmet Head]

As for the Leech being Natural/Un-Natural, surely my last post confirms without doubt that the Leech is completely outside the natural order of things, as it has no genesis, it never evolved, it just was...
Surely this points to it being something that you can't look at and judge in the same way as every day things.
The Leech is a Blasphemy, it should never have been and there fore I deem it EVIL.


Oh and about DC's point on whether the Leech or the Man/Woman was in control, it's always the Leech, it always has complete control.
Only 3 people in 3,000 years have beaten it Turgo Zolte, Harry Keogh and Harry Keogh JR (The Dweller)

[ February 19, 2004, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[DC 1]

If the leech is in total control, why then do we read about Wamphyri "commanding" their leech to heal them. Why is it the descision of a Lord or Lady to tell the leach to kill of any "bodily fluids" exchanged during matings?

This cannot be the actions of the lesser partner in this unholy union but point towards the host having control as long as his/her/it's actions do not threaten the existance of the leech.

Nobody has denied or argued that the leech is outside the natural order of things. But to say it is a blasphemy is only your opinion, and not a fact.

There may have only been 3 people in 3000 years who have beaten the leech (If Turgo did then what about the Lords and Ladies who followed his teaching/example), but this only proves how weak these Lords were or how much they enjoyed the power and immortality bestowed upon them by their leech. If I had a leech invade my body and give me the powers of a Wamphyri Lord, I doubt I would want it removed or subdued either .

These are not the Vampires you see on TV or in films who are all lost and victims of circumstance we are talking about. These are fierce Wamphyrie who are Gods in their communities and who want to be treated as such and probably love every moment of it.
(When Harry removed Karens leech, she could not live without it after knowing "life" with it.

Again, the point would be, it depends on each individuals perception of good and evil. So far I have not heard one thing to make me believe that the leech is EVIL.

[Dan Greyskull]

Good point...but ive not heard anything to convince me that the leech is GOOD neither. infact...so far - there's been alot more bad points about them rather than good.

[Dan Greyskull]

Good point...but ive not heard anything to convince me that the leech is GOOD neither. infact...so far - there's been alot more bad points about them rather than good.

[Dan Greyskull]

Oh bugger! Its posted it twice!! Now look who's the fool! :-(

[Eeyore Skullguise]

I don't think that anybody is trying to say that the leech is good; but just trying to decide if the leech is evil or not.

In my opinion the leech feeds their host an illusion that they are in control; the leech does this to avoid conflict with the host. The leech is aware that it's own-self is strong but depends on it's host for obvious reasons therefore it know's that it cannot afford the luxurey of allowing it's host to realise that he/she is not as strong as they thought; this could cause an act of free will to come into play and the banishing of the leech.

:confused:

[Eeyore Skullguise]

Sorry, emm that was a reply to DC about his point that the host has some control. When you sell your soul (so to speak) you lose your free will, wel unless you are as special as Harry etc.

[Dan Greyskull]

So we're gonna agree that the leech isn’t evil nor good...but its a life form that's very good at survival of the fittest then?

Because I’ll agree with that!

[DC 1]

Nope. I think what we should be saying that the leech acts on instinct alone, not thought. I do not really believe the leech is a sentient being and if this is the case, how can it be evil (or, I suppose good for that matter).

What I was saying is that it is the host, and not the leech that is eventually corrupted by the sense of power the leech gives it and thus it is the host who is evil, but only as a by product of hosting the leech (Huh).

I am now going to bang my head against the floor to sort out what I have just wrote. (Doh)

[ February 19, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: DC ]

[The Mad American]

OK, not to try and break this down to being too simple but no one has mentioned the Mobius Continuim Life threads. Any life thread that has a leech or Vampire taint is red when the rest of the life threads are not.

I think that in this way it shows that the Leech has changed the host it invaded in a way that goes beyond just natural instincts of survival and turns them into something evil and corrupted. This of course is a total opinion on the metaphysical nature of the life threads and the fact that once there is a leech involved it seems to be the only thing that will change the color of the life thread. So, even with Humans inclination to do "evil" or bad things that doesn't change their life thread, only the introduction of a Leech or the Vampire Taint.

So, my opinion is the Leech is evil.

[Sophie]

I think the beauty of the leech's working is that it can debated for hours, days, or years, and still nobody is right or wrong, as everybody has a different take on it, and different views of life which will effect this. Brian should be proud that his work has inspired so much thought within people.

But for the sake of this debate I agree with DC's arguement in total really, so I don't have to bore anyone by repeating it again smile.gif

Sophie

[Lupa the Ancient]

I agree that the relationship with the Leech alters the person, hence the life thread alters as well, but I still maintain that its the total mix and not just the leech that is EVIL ... the influence of the leech is undeniable, but I still have not had enough evidence to say that it starts out EVIL....

[Dan Greyskull]

Humm...there's sooo much to argue over!!

Who know's!

Has anyone asked Brian this one?!?!?

[Helmet Head]

If I remember correctly he agreed about it being evil, but that could be just false memory syndrome as I would obviously want Brian to side with me.

I think Brian himself just enjoys the fact that we argue and debate about something he created, I know I'd get a buzz out of it (note to self must write an amazing book(s))

[Dan Greyskull]

ha ha ha!! true!!!!

[DC 1]

I do remember what Brian said when asked about this but will not refresh the Helms obviously faulty memory on this. It would be unfair (Hee Hee)

A question:

If a Wamphyri Lord/Lady drained a victim totally, that victim would become a Wamphyri Lord/Lady.
Does this mean that they would grow a leech or would they be Wamphyri and have no Leech.

Answers:

Grow a leech. Then the idea of the leech always being around may just be a myth and in reality, the leech is a byproduct of the Wamphyri and not the other way round

No Leech. Then why does everyone think that it is the leech that is evil when in reality, it is the virus of the Wamphyri which is evil and this cannot always be attributed to the leech.

Whilst this is not really a part of the debate, it was summit I thought about whilst writing.

[Dan Greyskull]

okkkkk.....hummmm....sooo.... are they evil or not?!!?? because thats what the question said! There was no half way!!!! blush.gif

[DC 1]

No. The leech, in itself is not evil.

Once you mix a leech with a host, both should probably be classed as evil as they are, in effect one but I believe the evil side of this union is from the host and the leech, as it exists in symbiosis with the host, would be affected in some way.

But, as the debate was Is the leech evil I would have to say NO, the leech cannot be classed as evil.

[Helmet Head]

That's not to say that it isn't either, this is a debate after all and all opinions and views are welcome.

[Dan Greyskull]

At first I thought that the leech was an evil factor. But after hearing the points that have been made on here, I’m starting to think I’m wrong!
Although… as what’s also been said, the leech does magnify its host's emotions which causes the host to be a lot more aggressive and careless for others, which does make the Wamphyri an evil creature. But is it really just the host? As I have said before, the leech battles with its host to achieve greater control - which in almost every case - it gets...so its the leech's own doing, not the host's surly.
The host's emotions are increased as well as strength, but no caring feelings (even though the books have said that Wamphyri have fallen in love, it’s very rare) is this because the leech sees it as a weakness? Or does it hate the thought of caring for others because it’s an evil parasite?
Also, one of Helm's I think.... About in the 'Source' that Leech in the tank...I wouldn’t say it was a lovely thing at all! Would you?!?!!?!? I’ll have to read up on that part of the book to see...
And lastly, I’ve said about the Wamphyri whose host was not human but of dog, fox or wolf...but these Wamphyri are still just as evil as the other Wamphyri who had human hosts…. And were we not saying before that its human’s that have the emotions of greed, anger, jealousy and hatred?

I do agree with that the leech does take after its host's emotions...but what about these other points that say against it?

[Eeyore Skullguise]

That was a really valid point that Mad American made about the life threads; it proves that their mission (leech) goes beyond any evil deeds performed by humans.

[Dan Greyskull]

ooooohh - nice one Eeyore!! Missed that one!!!

[The Mad American]

Great debate but I am sticking with my view of the leech being the evil originater.

I am going to have to go back and read the books again, since it has been awhile but doesn't Shaitan take on the appearance of a leech when he is stranded in the Icelands? Or am I just hallucinating again? Something about the holes drilled in the Ice to suck the other trapped beings juices?

So, if what I remember is correct then Shaitan changing to resemble the Leech is like it completely exerting its influence on the host, therefore showing that it is the in control evil of the pair.

Although, if I imagined or hallucinated the Shaitan thing, I accept that I am a complete idiot and my opinion doesn't matter.

[Dan Greyskull]

No seems to have answer's for us!!

[Sophie]

Thought of one more point and probably my last on this. Canker was fox/wolf mix, with slight human origin. I always thought the books demonstrated that he had more redeeming features that the pure human Wamphyri. Though I'm not saying he wasn't terrible and cruel in places. He sort a genuine friendship with Nestor, while all the others would have just had him expelled from the stack. I even thought he demonstrated genuine kindness, affection towards Nestor and his moon mistress.

Don't the human Wamphyri in Torgosheim, well more Devetaki and Vormulac, talk about eradicating, the none human origin Wamphyri and succeed within their own army at the end of Blood Wars? As they thought they were beneath them, and very inferior?

Also the very last three Necroscope books, with the new generation Earth bound Necroscope, Jake. As well as most of E-branch are infected by the spores, and most of the entire world. They manage to control the leech, and enter a new a gentler age of mutant human existence. This also makes me feel, the leech enhances the hosts base emotions, fears, and egocentricities, but not necessarily as a bad thing, as was demonstrated in the last books. This again me feel the leech will only be as evil (even though I think good and evil is a load of crap, and life can't pigeoned holed into neat little categories for our convenience. It's far too Black and white), as the hidden base darker emotions of it's host.

Everything we have discussed about is definetly food for thought tongue.gif

Sophie

[ February 21, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Sophie ]

[Lupa the Ancient]

I have to say theres been some great points and arguments made in this thread.... real food for thought.

It hasn't swayed me away from my original thoughts, that fundamently the leech is NOT EVIL... but everyones points are certainly valid...

[DC 1]

That is why choosing this as the first debate was so good.

Everyone has his or her own opinion on the leech. Mostly, this is formed whilst you are reading the books and depends on how engrossed you are in the storylines.

You can debate all year on this (Some of us have) and still not decide if the leech is evil. (No one suggests that it is good).

My own opinion is that the leech is just that, a leech, and as horrific as it may sound, it is just a parasite doing what it has to do, survive at all costs.

As I said in the beginning, how far would you go to survive if your existence was on the line?

Really enjoyed this one by the way smile.gif

;) ;)

[Helmet Head]

Final thought (oooohh, I feel like Jerry Springer)

Well plenty of good points fore and against, not quite sure(s) and somewhere(s) in between’s, I’m sure this particular debate will rage on as long as there are still Lumlians abound to contest it but I’m afraid all good things must come to an end and unfortunately the time has run out on this little beauty in this particular thread.
Thank you to everyone who contributed all opinions, ideas and thoughts were greatly appreciated.

Well all that’s left for me to do is reveal the Master Debater (he he) and that is…DC

Me and Tops went for DC as he seemed to get his point across the clearest and also he seemed to have influenced the most people in there thinking.

So then all that’s left for me to do is await DC putting up our next debatable topic, so that I can get on with disagreeing with him ;)

[ February 23, 2004, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[Llamedos]

Does this mean that I've missed out the the debate?

If not, one point to make with regard to the colour of the life lines as it where... Trogs were also a different colour to the others.... Green I think although can't remember about the Thrye.

So don't see where the colour comes into it.

[Helmet Head]

Yeah you've missed this one fella but don't worry we shall be conducting another as soon as DC comes up with a worth while topic.

[Dan Greyskull]

I know its pointless...but the Thrye were Gold I think....

[Silver]

OK here's my 2 pence for what it's worth

The leech is not evil. For all the reasons that have already been stated but the point that I would like to mention is that the leech, in order to survive, which is it's number one goal in life amplifies it's hosts emotions, this has already been said and lets face it it is much easier to survive if you don't care for anything other than yourself.

Love and affection are dangerous as they can blind you to an enemy and can make you weak, as far as survival instinct is concerned. If you treat everyone as an enemy and fuel those baser emotions you have a far better chance of survival, this is all instinctive behaviour not inteligent.

The reason this is instinct and not inteligence is proved by those who managed to override the desire kill (for example) by recognising it as the leech feeling threatened any by doing so manage to make the decision to go with it, or not like Harry when he doesn't kill Paxton, even though he wants to. It's his leech feeling threatened which encourages his desire to kill but Harry ultimately makes the decision, not his leech.

Also the leech fuells all emotions, not just the baser ones even though they are used more often for the survival thing it's still only going on what the host is feeling, Harry and Karen did seem to fall in love, it wasn't just lust they actually cared for eachother despite their leeches. Also Wratha thought that she loved Nestor, even though he didn't.

This is my argument, if it was trully evil they wouldn't be capable of caring for eachother at all.

[Eeyore Skullguise]

Congratulations DC. The title was well deserved smile.gif

An excellent debate.

[DC 1]

Titus Crow or Henri de Marigny.

Who d'man

Was Titus all he was cracked up to be. Was Henri the real force.
Who is your favorite and why. OR are they nowt without each other.

Discuss.

Normal rules apply and contributors/readers should ignore the banter between the Helm and Myself. Remember, you do not have to believe what you say, just make the rest of us agree grin.gif

And Thank you, I'm not sure if being called the master debated is a compliment but thanx anyway :confused:

[ February 24, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: DC ]

[topol_sheap]

I'm not entering this one... everyone knows what I think. And as myself and helm are choosing a winner, it would be unfair to enter.

Changed my mind. smile.gif

You know it's De Marigny though. I mean he saved us all, even though his so called friend (Crow) played him for an idiot. ;)

I don't remember Crow being chased across the cosmos by Cthulhu while Henri sat on his bottom in Elysia watching through the viewer???

I also don't remember Henri being rebuilt by a robot so he was super human and then sitting on his bottom in Elysia while his fully human friend put his life on the line for what? Err the thought of entering Elysia, which was then used as a prison for Cthulhu... Some Elysia, some friends.

I'll stop before I explode ;)

[Sophie]

I'm not going to read this thread until it finishes as I haven't read the Titus Crow books yet, though the trilogy sits on my desk right now ready to be read.

So yeah I bow out for now...

Sophie

[topol_sheap]

is that a trilogy in 6 parts Sophie?

[Lupa the Ancient]

Ah Titus Crow or Henri De Marigny ... Although Henri did much of the donkey work, I have to doff my cap to the main man Titus Crow, a true hero amongst men .... a real extrovert, Henri really was just a follower of this man .... he wanted to be Titus Crow.

Titus was the brain ... Henri the muscle....

[Helmet Head]

Titus Crow is most definitely the top dog here but it's quite a difficult question, as I'm always changing my mind on this one.

Taking into account all the short stories as well I'm going to have to go for Crow, by the time he reaches the point of his Transition after the Burrowers Beneath, he's well earned his rest, although he's remade into an almost Super Human he still deserves his rest in Elysia after all he's been through.

Henri was a lot younger and it's not like he didn't give him a lot of help; a time clock and a flying cloak...I mean what else could a man want for.

[topol_sheap]

err, not being made a fool of, and then being chased across the universe but some big tentacled freak.

When Crow was searching through the universe, he had no idea of what he might encounter, where as when Henri was doing the same, Crow knew what was going on. This would really p*ss me off if I found out my BEST FRIEND in the universe was playing me for a fool, while he was relaxing with the green haired godess...

[Helmet Head]

Ahh but Crow knew that to make it work he couldn't tell Henri the whole truth or put him into the piture as it may put the whole of the Universe in jepordy.

Crow wasn't happy about it but it needed to be done friendship in the one hand the safety of the entire universe in the other, come on Tops even you would have to admit that the choice he made was for the best

[ February 25, 2004, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[Sophie]

Originally posted by Tops:
is that a trilogy in 6 parts Sophie? LOL... shit I forgot there are six stories in total (bangs head). I didn't get to look at the book much when I bought it, now I realise (studying the back) it's the volume 1 of two volumes, which equals 6 stories. doh! I'm having an especially dopey week, please carry on (runs off embarassed)

Sophie

[ February 25, 2004, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Sophie ]

[Llamedos]

Henri is the man as far as I'm concerned...

Completely human as oppose to robot.
Was not annointed at birth with an elixer.
Had brains aswell as brawn, else he wouldn't have got to the intended destination.
Helped beat Ithaqua the windwalker with the rest.
Crow's home defence was massive in comparison with Henri's, yet he still did the best he could against the chlutu (Spelt wrong I know).

Well just a little burst for now.

[DC 1]

I agree with the comments above. (All of them)

I actually think that without each other, they were not that great a force to be reckoned with but as a team, yup they kicked ass.

Henri may just pip this one though as, being totally human, he still followed where Titus dared to tread. He was always around to dig Titus out of a hole no matter the consequence and, although the same may be said in Titus Crows defence, he had the knowledge that he was not human and was faster and stronger than Henri so maybe he had a much better chance of coming through their adventures unscathed.

[topol_sheap]

hmmm... as I judge this with helm, I wonder who will win:)

[Dan Greyskull]

I havent read the Titus Crow books neither...so i'll give this one as miss aswell :(

[Helmet Head]

Final thought;

Unfortunately not many takers on this one, although I know it to be a good topic and one that many lumlian’s have differing opinions on, it’s maybe just a little to black and white and kind of easy to answer yay or nay to depending on where you stand on the whole argument of Who da man Titus or Henri.

Anyway no real out right winner here so I’m just going to nominate Tops (providing that’s okay???) to come up with the next topic as I think he’s the biggest Mass Debater around here.

Take it away fella…

[topol_sheap]

err thanks smile.gif

hmmm, topic of discussion this week is:
the most evil vmapire of them all, who is it?

I'll start by saying, Faethor. I wont say why, but my reasons are purely stoopid:)

Take it away guys and gals

Tops

[Eeyore Skullguise]

The most evil vampire? hmm..

(very good topic for discussion btw)

The most evil vampire would definately have to be Shaitan; he is the fallen one after all.

But what determines extreme evil? Is it actions or intentions? I need to be able to answer this to give a real answer. brb

[Helmet Head]

Good one mate...


Right most evil Wamphyri ever???
..errmmm..Shaitan..no wait..Faethor..no Shaitan..ahh..no Faethor :confused:

To hard must think on this one and come back with a definate answer and why.

[Lupa the Ancient]

Been away in Stratford for a few days so missed most of the Crow/Henri debate - working of course, not at the Most Haunted live - which was a pity!

Anyway, my gut reaction is Shaitan .. but like the rest of ya I'll have to mull it over ...

[ March 02, 2004, 03:24 AM: Message edited by: Lupa the Ancient ]

[Sophie]

errr... I'll have to think about this one also...

Sophie

[Helmet Head]

Shaitan all the way down the line with this one no change of mind needed, Shaitan is deffo the biggest bad ass in Wamphyri history ever...

He has absolutely no redeeming features at all and is completely evil evil evil all the way to the core, so evil in fact that the Wamphyri them selves deemed him to evil for them and banished his bad ass butt into the freezing cold wastes of the icelands.

[Eeyore Skullguise]

Yes Shaitan is really really evil; I can tell.. tongue.gif

[Botch the Mad]

ditto for me with shaitan.

[Lupa the Ancient]

It certainly looks like Shaitan takes the biscuit with this one.. I just see evil all the way with this dude. The true genesis of the Wamphyri .....

[Nosgali Songsayer]

little late I guess. Henry/Titus? Gotta go with Titus, he landed the babe. Henry got stuck with po foot. Titus got the wicked wicked hot babe.

Most evil Wamphyri? Shaithis, I'd say Shaitan but I don't know as much of his story, so I'm goin with Shaithis on this one.

"The seven tongues of God are in my mind"
~Nevermore

[Nosgali Songsayer]

little late I guess. Henry/Titus? Gotta go with Titus, he landed the babe. Henry got stuck with po foot. Titus got the wicked wicked hot babe.

Most evil Wamphyri? Shaithis, I'd say Shaitan but I don't know as much of his story, so I'm goin with Shaithis on this one.

"The seven tongues of God are in my mind"
~Nevermore

[Nosgali Songsayer]

sorry, it posted twice, not too sure how that happened, but sorry

[Nathan]

Just wanted to pop in and say I've really been enjoying this thread.

smile.gif

[Helmet Head]

Final thoughts…

Again not to many takers on this one, and it seemed that Shaitan took the title of baddest Wamphyri of all time without any others putting up a decent fight.

Are well hopefully my next topic for debating will generate a bit more interest (I know I choose the winner but there really wasn’t anything to choose from last time so I’ve nominated myself, hey it’s my topic!!!) ;)

So who is the greatest Necroscope of them all???

Now this doesn’t mean you’re favourite one, all though it can be but I want to know who was the best and why.

Harry Keogh???
Harry Keogh Junior???
Nathan Keogh???
Jake Cutter???
Blaze???
Grinner???
Dock???

[ March 08, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[Lady Rissa]

Ahh, if only I had been by more recently, I had thoughts on all topics before. Must remind myself to stop by more often.

Greatest Necroscope of all? Hmm, this can be taken many ways... which one had the most abilities, did the most for humankind, used his deadspeak to do the most, etc. Or is a combination of this and many other factors I've not been able to put coherently on screen (not thinking 100% as I'm under the spell of Nyquil). ;)

I would have to say my vote goes to Harry.
He had deadspeak from birth, but had to develop it on his own.
He had to learn the formula for the Mobius Continum from Mobius himself, as the others had it practically handed to them on a silver platter (or golden dart if you will).
He was also the one who twarted many a Wamphyri on both Earths, and helped make the world(s) a safer place to live.
He was in charge of himself even when he became infected with a leach.
He didn't kill humans for food, and had the self control to only incapacate (and not kill) the mind flea Paxton when he was feeling the full effects of his leach enhanced emotions.
Also, lets not forget that he is the only one (as far as we know) that was able to take the next step up the ladder after his physical form (well, Alex's physical form) died, when he was burst into a million golden darts. That alone seems to think that the "Powers that Be" regarded him as the greatest.
So, I would have to say, Harry.

[Helmet Head]

I see your point Rissa about Harry qualifying for the 1st class lounge, but Jake and Nathan never took the old death road (not yet anyway??)

So it's not as cut and dried as that (good point though and to be honest I agree all the way down the line that HK was most definately the MAN, my reasons I shall make clear nearer the end of this wee debate)

[Botch the Mad]

i think it has to be the dweller. more powerful, more intelligent, more capable than the rest. called up the dead from the cradle, cradle to the grave? sorry, bad pun. took the knowlege from harry, from his mind directly and away from his mind. knew the continuum better than harry. i'm biased though, the dweller has always been my fav.

[Lady Rissa]

Botch - It's true that the dweller did more with the continuum, and he did call the dead from the cradle - however (as you point out) he learned who to do it from Harry's mind. If he didn't leach the knowledge from Harry's mind when Harry was a part of it, who's to say he could've gotten as far as he did. He also was able to spend more time exploring the contiuum than Harry - he learned it earlier and had it for longer. It was also never taken from him (until he reached him wolf form). Perhaps if Harry hadn't spent so much time trying to save the world and find his family, how do we know that he couldn't have figured out and explored the continuum as Jr did.

Helm - Jake did "bite the big one" as in the last book, the children are being taught how E Branch, Jake, Ben, etc "relinquished their years toi retain their humanity" for their children & children's children. Ian - who witnessed Harry's "explosion into golden darts), didn't forsee anything like that from happening to Jake.
As Nathan managed to get Startside free 100% (as agfr as we know- who knows what the future holds) of Wamphyri, then he must have died, he didn't have the power of everlasting life. And, unlike Harry, he didn't give his life to the end for defeating the Wamphyri.

[Lupa the Ancient]

It must be Harry, Lady Rissa has hit the nail on the head ...I see where your coming from with the Dweller Botch, but I doff my flatcap to HK...

[hocopepa]

whilst i haven't read enough of the saga to have a personal opinion on this one (still waiting for amazonto deliver my copy of blood brothers...grr) i has been brought to my attention (by me) that this debate has been carried out before an as none of those envolved have got envolved this time maybe you should check their views before deciding http://www.brianlumley.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000336

[sistermoon]

I'd have to say Harry because he learned how to use all of his gifts to benefit himself and mankind, and also how to fight off his own demons and how to ensure that his legend lived on in his offspring.

[Silver]

I think Harry too, I won't go on about it as Rissa's said all that needs to be said, after that how can it not be Harry?

[Botch the Mad]

well, the best thing about a debate is that there is supposed to be a debate. if everybody picks harry ,then it is no fun. i love harry to death (sorry, bad pun) but also love to debate. come on people, think up some good reasons why characters other than harry were the best. what about lardis and his fortitude, or karen and her humanity (so to speak). if everybody says harry, this thread will end quicker than the time it takes me to get from the first floor down!

[Silver]

Good point Botchie but as we have the opportunity to decide who we think is the best we have to be honest and it seems that popular opinion is that it's Harry.

If we were given a person to go with then I'm sure we would do our best to defend them and try to convince everyone else.

[Botch the Mad]

the dweller really is my fav though. you guys are boring. ;) tongue.gif smile.gif

[Helmet Head]

Expand on it then Botchie my old fella, make us see the error of our ways by putting in exactly why the dweller was the best.

[Botch the Mad]

i already did.

[Lady Rissa]

Well, maybe it is time for something else to debate about, I believe the week time limit has passed.....

Added note, didn't most everybody agree that Shaitan was the most evil Wamphyri. If everyone can agree that he is the most evil, why can't everyone agree that Harry was the greatest???

[Helmet Head]

Your right Rissa the time limit is most definately up and it looks like Harry won by a clear few million parsecs...

I would have posted earlier but my new job takes up a huge chunk of my days now so I can't always get to the board and when I do it's never for very long.

Anyhoo enough of that, I deem Lady Rissa the winner on this one and it is now her turn to put up a debate.

[Lady Rissa]

How about this....

Excluding any and all Necroscopes, who was the most valuable member of EBranch, past, present and/or future?

[Eeyore Skullguise]

That Is a tough one...

You can't have one member without the rest, they are a team. Anyway I would have to say Alec Kyle. If it hadn't of been for him then Harry would not have been able to do the rest of what he had to do. I thought Alec Kyle was very professional.
Sorry my argument is crappy. blush.gif

[Botch the Mad]

i would have to say keenan gormley. he, and his death, were arguably the catalyst for harry doind a lot of what he did. not all, but a lot. he was the first e-branch boss, and he was e-branch. he was a mentor to the e-branchers and a great motivator. without him, e-branch would not have been what it was.

[Helmet Head]

I'm kind of fond of Trevor Jordan, but seen as he didn't do much I'm definately going to have to say Darcy Clarke.

Did alot for the branch but he was also one of the only people who Harry counted as a true friend.

[Lupa the Ancient]

Its certainly a team effort, I reckon all play a part in the great scheme of things. I'm gonna think about this abit more ....

[Silver]

I like Ben Trask for this, even though I am tempted by Botch's suggestion of Sir Keenan Gormley.

Ben was there almost from the beginning, his career in E-branch was one of the longest and from the start of it he was hunting vampires in the shape of Yulian Bodescu. He continued to do so in Starside as well as Earth and was also a trusted friend of Harry and Nathan, and let Harry go when he needed to.

He is a good man with compassion and a strong sense of duty, even though he doesn't always like it and is trusted and respected by everyone, even the Minister Responsible which helps to make him an excellent leader who the rest of the team will follow no matter the danger.

[Lupa the Ancient]

The two that spring to mind are Ben Trask and Alec Kyle.

Ben Trask has seen it all from the very start, intelligent and does the right thing. A very good person that anyone would want on there side....Keeps it all together.

Basically I second what Silver says!

I reiterate what I said before -- e-branch is a team, all play there part in the big picture.

[Botch the Mad]

ben trask was definitely my favorite, but i'm stating with sir keenan.

[Helmet Head]

I always felt that Trask was just making up for going against Harry, he always seemed like he was doing it all out of duty and he just wanted to finish the work that others had started.

I like Ben Trask but I still don't think he was the main man, it doesn't really mention it in the books but I always got the impression that he was carrying a secret guilt and burden around with himself, and that he kind of felt partly responsible about what happened to Harry,
and because of that he has never and will never be my favourite.

[Sophie]

I'd say Alec Kyle, for one and most obvious, Harry later inhabits his body making it his own, without which Harry may have just passed on into the Great Majority, or wherever he may have gone in that state, and none of the events of The Source, Deadspeak, DeadSpawn, The Lost Years, and the big one of course. Nathan and Nestor not being conceived. Would have happened if it wasn't for Kyle.

Also, he created the file on Harry Keogh that all future members of E-branch read to familiarise themselves with what Harry is about. If I remember in the last three E-branch books, they give out the file for mandatory reading to the new members. Without Alec Kyle to write down tale Harry tells him in his incorporeal form, the tale that Tran descends time, as a lot of it hadn't already happened, or was just happening when Harry was informing Kyle. Things may have turned out a lot differently in the world, What if Yulian Bodescu was not stopped, simply because Harry hadn't of told E-branch about him?

But I could be talking crap... but there is my answer anyway,

Sophie

[ March 28, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: Sophie ]

[Silver]

Some good points about Kyle there but I don't agree that having a body going spare means that you've done anything more valuable, even though he did do many things that were good before his mind was wiped out, like begining to unite the Russians and the British, it was just very fortunate for Harry that things happened that way.

OK, if things hadn't have happened that way then thre would not have been any of Harry's offspring in Starside but it was just circumstancial, Alec didn't give Harry his body, Harry took it.

Helm, maybe Trask did feel the burden of what he did to Harry, but he didn't do any different than anyone else, and was better than some, and he tried his best to make it up to Nathan and I think he succeeded.

Being burdend by duty doesn't make you any less valuable either. One of the things that made him so great was that he did that duty and what he thought was right no matter what was going on with him personally, he put the team first and the human race every time.

[sistermoon]

Ben Trask for his strength and humanity.

[Sophie]

Originally posted by Silver:
Some good points about Kyle there but I don't agree that having a body going spare means that you've done anything more valuable, even though he did do many things that were good before his mind was wiped out, like begining to unite the Russians and the British, it was just very fortunate for Harry that things happened that way.
OK, if things hadn't have happened that way then thre would not have been any of Harry's offspring in Starside but it was just circumstancial, Alec didn't give Harry his body, Harry took it.
Whether or not Kyle gave his body to Harry or he took it isn't the point, even without his mind, his body was valuable, because without it Harry wouldn't have been able to carry on. Maybe it was just circumstantial, it stilled saved Harry's neck by those chain of events. For me Kyle did a lot more things before being brain washed and left a husk as I pointed out.

I do like Ben trask(he was second on my list, and Lupa made a point that E-branch was a team past and present and it's very hard to choose just one person who was the most valuable) and he was one of the main character throughout the whole linking series. I like him as much as everybody else does, but I just feel Alec contributed (before being brain washed and after when he was just a body) quite a big important part of the continuation of the story. But it would be a bit boring debate if everybody agreed with everybody tongue.gif

Sophie

[ March 31, 2004, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Sophie ]

[Helmet Head]

Right looks like we've gone over on this one but I didn't want to spoil it as this little poser seemed to generate a little more interest than some of its predecessors.

I don't think any one member of E-Branch could be picked out in the end, but I guess that's why they say there’s no I in TEAM.

As for the overall Mass-Debater on this little subject I'm going to have to award my mate Shaz with the honour (Silver for anyone that doesn't know)

Pick us a good-un

[Silver]

Thanks Helm, but you know your mistake don't you? Or did you do it on purpose?

Anyway, back to topic - it's really difficult to think of something!

OK we've just had the most valuable member of Ebranch, but who has the most valuable/useful talent in Ebranch, excluding Harry or Jake obviously.

[Sophie]

hmmm this one is too tough... can I say all of them? Didn't think so... must go away and think about this.

Sophie

[Helmet Head]

grin.gif

[Helmet Head]

Right I've had a good old think about this one and believe that I have the perfect answer, you see it strikes me the all the talents in e-branch are pretty even.
All of them are equally useful especially when they are doubled up or even combined as a whole.

So with this in mind I've approached this question from a slightly different angle and I'm going to base it on the talent with the least draw back, you see every talent is useful but they all have there little draw backs as well.

Darcy Clarke for instance, now his guardian angel would be an awesome talent to have, but it’s not the most useful thing to a team now is it, he’s hardly going to be a big help to you in a scrap now is he, as he’s likely to be giving it toes in the opposite direction while your getting your head kicked in.

Ben Trask human lie detector, obviously a really useful talent but after a while it must start to really bring you down and make you bitter as the whole world seems to be lying.

Zek/Jordan etc and there telepathy another awesome talent and probably one of the front runners, a huge talent with a huge draw back with there minds so open it leaves them wide open for counter attack.

Ian Goodly’s precognistic ability is really useful but it doesn’t really change anything does it, and you should only try and second guess the future at your peril.

Anne Marie English need I say more…

Now I’ve been through a few there but the one talent I’d like to draw your attention to is one Mr David Chung-Locater extraordinaire, a hugely useful talent and one with the least draw backs (IMHO)

So I’ve gone for Chung’s ability…but whos talent gets your vote?

[Lupa the Ancient]

Good points from you there Mr H.... After much ponderance, I reckon that David Chungs locating abilities would prove very useful indeed, been able to keep tabs of numerous individuals has already shown how helpfull to the rest of the gang it can be....

Emmmmm... I think if I was to choose, I'd go with Darcys talent, to have the hunch and be able to avoid potential disaster - surely this also helps the rest of the group!?

[Helmet Head]

But Darcy's talent doesn't work like that does it; it doesn't give him a heads up or let him know he's in for some bother.
It just makes sure he's not there when it gets a bit hairy, and it could be something as innocuous as the trots…
And you wouldn’t know until afterwards that it was his talent working.

[Silver]

I'm suprised you missed the Necroscope in your pro/con list Helm, the dead saved Harry's life loads of times by getting up for him and giving him invaluable information, like the equasions to the mobius continuum.

Thats got to be useful!

But on the other hand, using his talent by talking to Faother was what made him go visit him which turned him into a vamp but does that one big con out weigh all the pros?

[Helmet Head]

Yeah but you said NO Harrry or Jake... :confused:

Typical woman one rule for one thing and another for another ;)

[ April 13, 2004, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[Helmet Head]

Looks like this subject and thread has finally died the the true death :(

But not to worry I'll just leave it open for a free for all now and if you wanna debate something you can, and if you don't...well you don't have to I suppose.

Cheers and thanks for taking the time to take part guys

Pete

[Silver]

Sorry Helm, I forgot I'd said that, my last post was only a flying visit and I had a lot of other stuff on that I needed to sort out so I was only half concentrating on it.

Sorry again!

[Helmet Head]

Just bringing this one back to the surface incase there's anything people want debating!!!

DC, SDMDKD????

[DC 1]

I will have to try and find my soapbox first.

I had forgotten how much fun the first one was

[Helmet Head]

It was pretty good even if I do say so myself, although it was mostly down to all the varied peeps who took part in it....might have to think up a new topic to argue over as it's been a while

[DC 1]

We could start with the wisdom of wearing pink to the con (Debs excluded of course).

[Helmet Head]

I've decided after a long rest that the Mass Debate (chuckle) is due a return, for how long is up to you guy's as after all it's you lot who shall be putting your views accross.
Please refer to the begining of this thread for the rules etc.

So hopefully a week from now there will be loads of posts in here and from that I can choose us a new Mass Debater (more childish chuckling) who can set us a new topic for argument and genral discussion...

So what's the new topic to get us started???

The proposed Necroscope movie???
If you had the power how would you do it???
All star cast?
Bunch of knowbody's?
Would you stay completely faithful to the book?
Would you chang things completely to make them fit the medium of cinema better?
Would you condense more than one book into the story?
Would you even make it at all?

Remember there are a million and one way's to make a movie but how would you adapt this brilliant book?

Bare in mind constraints and budgets folks try and make your "pitch" as makeable as possible...

[ July 22, 2005, 03:10 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

[DC 1]

My first thoughts on this would be to get Brian in as a consultant. No-one better than the author to visualize how "things" should look.

Maybe a couple of Big Names but try and get some good unknowns as well. (Maybe Tom Cruise to play Max Batu, thats about the only character he is tall enough to play smile.gif )

As to how...ah well.

I will think on this and post more later.... smile.gif

[Dave Black]

The last question seems the most apt, would I even make the film ? No ! Since I read the source back in the eighties Ive had a mental image of all the characters and the biggest problem with a film is our mental images are then replaced by actors so from that day on we no longer see the characters we "know", we see instead Brad Pitt, Antonio Banderas or Tom Cruise (are you sure ?)when we read our beloved books.
However though this question may be the most pertinent to me it is in fact the least relevant question as the film is already going ahead, so why did I bother answering it ? . . . . . . . I'll get my coat.

[DC 1]

Tom Cruise was a joke smile.gif

[Helmet Head]

The film is in fact only a proposed project and this in no way guarente's it being made...

And we are after your opinions so that would be why I would answer the question.
It's only a debate after all, it's not like were brainstorming for the film's production team now is it ;)

I think you'll find DC that Tom Cruise still is... smile.gif

[sdkdmd]

Tom who????

[DC 1]

Tom Thumb

[Dave Black]

Youre all mad, hadnt realised it was as yet only a proposed project, I keep checking the web site but its still under construction, back to the movie ! Personally I would rather see a bunch of nobodies playing the major parts, a few b list actors perhaps but big names not only blow the budget out of all proportion they detract from the movie in that people see the film for the actor not the film itself, an example; how mant women can honestly say they watched Troy for its sweeping sets and amazing cinematography ? Brad Pitt in a skirt ! Spend more on the film instead of paying ludicrous wages to huge egos.

[sdkdmd]

A bunch of no-bodies is the way i'd go.

when i'm reading or just thinking about Necroscope, i don't want a image of "Tom Who?" in my mind.
I have no vivid images of the characters, even with a descriptions from the book and i kind-of like it that way.
i also agree with Daves comment about the budget.

i would prefer that they stick with one book, Necroscope.
I don't see any reason for adding any thing from others, necroscope is a story in it's self, Wamphyri is a story in it's self, and what better ending then, Harry dying, then entering the Mobius con. To be picked up later for a second movie.

i would focus on Harry's life as a child and as an adult, along with Boris. i think you have to minimize Thibor's back story, but show enough of what we all know about the Wamphyri so the common foke would understand.

[Dave Black]

It would be nice to think that the entire Necro saga will be in film form one day but if the 1st book is all we get they will have to condense a lot of information into it so non Lumlians understand, I would like to see the Wamphyri history left fairly well alone as it keeps people guessing as to what we are dealing with and obviously all would become clear in the 3rd film but if the lineage had already been explained that would make The Source somewhat of an anticlimax,and please no Keanu Reeves types doing hilariously bad Brirish accents, Im sure we've got plenty of home grown talent capable of the parts, no offence to our American cousins, we love y'aaaalll really.

[Dave Black]

Does a "mass" debate usually only consist of four people talking ? If I can drag my arse off the sofa so can you.
Its easier to be poor and infamous than it is to be rich and famous !

[Sophie]

ack I still think the Necroscope should be left as books.

that's my two pence worth tongue.gif

Sophie

[chris the glut]

Okay, dragged my arse off the sofa & here's my two cents.
Having thought about it for a while, I'm torn between my desire to see the movie and my fear of having it botched by the hillbillies that sign the cheques in la la land. Sin City and the Spiderman movies for example are proof positive that comics and novels can remain faithful when transferred to the screen. The Batman movies however are equal proof that they're more likely to be screwed by directors who are more concerned with their "artistic vision" and producers always thinking about maximum profits than paying respect to characters who already have a rich and complex history to draw from (60 years, about 30 of them good in the case of Batman.)
Superman came from Krypton. I don't see any need to change that, no matter what a director's "artistic vision" tells him. The Joker did not die after his first encounter with Batman (neither did the Green Goblin in Spiderman, granted, but I forgive this oversight because everything else was pretty much spot on), nor should Batman be disposed to reveal his identity to every girl he falls for. This propensity to screw with the mythology of long established characters is rife, and slotting big name actors in ill-suited parts to sell tickets just pisses me off!
Yes, I can hear the voice of logic saying "but if they don't, the movie won't get made, you know it's all about bums on seats etc etc etc yadda yadda yadda..." - well then, don't make the friggin' thing at all. If any of you have read Danse Macabre by Stephen King, you'll know about the longest footnote in literature (as King puts it) concerning Richard Matheson and the think tank concerning the script for the first Star Trek movie. If you don't know what I'm talking about, look it up. If you do know...would you really want our beloved Necroscope to be left in the hands of such morons as these?
Okay, I've vented enough! Love and peace.

[Dave Black]

Sophie your two penneth is priceless, my sentiments exactly.
Well said Chris, simple fact is however they make the film no true Lumlian is going to be entirely happy with it, we want the perfect movie and probably wont get it BUT you just know however it turns out we'll be begging for more.
Dont you just hate it when they got you over a barrel ?
Chicken lips on special offer this week only!!!!!

[Adam Bigge]

Here is something to think about.

I'm not sure if I would be more comfortable seeing the movie done as a big screen production or as a cable network production. With the small screen you can take your time to tell the story and you get to use lesser known actors to test the waters. Anyone remember "The Stand"? While it wasn't nearly as good a the book, it was a far cry better than a lot of other attempts to turn a book into a movie. Also lets not forget how well Showtime did with "Stargate: SG-1". That particular franchise took off like a rocket and it had almost no fan base to start with. A movie/mini-series would (in my opinion) be the safest way to go as long as the special effects budget was big enough. Then they could always take it to the big screen later with the next few books in the series.

BTW.....thanks for cueing me in on this thread, Dave.

[chris the glut]

Nope, if it's crap I wouldn't be begging for more. To use a sports metaphor (well, everyone else does these days), my football team played in 4 losing premierships between 1989-1995. That's 4 losses, no cup since 1963 - meaning none in my lifetime. By 1995 I just couldn't stand it anymore - too many letdowns. And now they once again have a good enough squad to maybe have another crack at it in the next year or so. I'm equal parts excited and petrified. The heart can only take so much and runner up just doesn't do it for me. The last thing I want to do however is just give up on my team altogether.
I've been fed scraps long enough and I just want to see some quality film making. I want it to be for the devotees who love the books and care about the characters. I know everyone has their own ideas about casting and preferred storylines etc, I do as well and that's to be expected. It doesn't have to be "perfect" in that regard. I just want a team that have read and admire the books to have a crack at putting it together with the intention of staying true to the spirit of the books. That's my number one concern. I'm just afraid that it'll be taken over by knuckleheads who just want to make a lowbrow muckmonster movie for the video market. And to hell with appealing to the general public, they neither know nor care so why pander to them. That's what they did with the first Star Trek TNG movie and it was awful. But when they made First Contact for the fans it wasn't just a good trek-style movie - it was actually a well made sci-fi movie that even non trek fans liked. IT CAN BE DONE!
If you make it well, they will come!
Ah, whatever!!! Let Tom Cruise play Harry. Let him play Zek, he probably thinks he could pull it off!

[Adam Bigge]

I can see your point. But Star Trek had a huge reputation already as a long time franchise. Even if someone wasn't a fan they were still familiar with the premise. We Lumlians are very familiar with "The Master's" work but there are a great many people (a great majority even) who, if you asked them, would say "wamp-what?" or "Brian who?" when it comes to the books. That's why if we want a good movie and a chance for a sequel they need to definitely be intimately aquainted with the books but also need to make sure even a newcomer to the story can understand it. Marketing is EVERYTHING. If you make the first movie just for the fans the people who are unfamiliar with the story will feel left out and won't come to see the next one (if we are lucky enough to get a sequel). If anything, the SECOND movie is the one that you make for the fans since by then people have gotten curious and started to read the books after they saw the movie (Harry Potter anyone?) I personally despise the Harry Potter books. They are infantile and my grade school siblings refer to them as "baby books". But they are succesful as movies because they were marketed properly and they didn't try to cram to much into the first one. Classic case of "lousy books, good movies". By all means, make the movie true to the book but don't just make it for the fans, otherwise we lose the chance to bring in a whole new generation of fans on a massive scale thus ensuring the longevity of a whole new movie franchise.

IA!!

[Helmet Head]

Right well the time limit is up on this particular debate and I deem Dave Black the Master Debater (titter) on this little discussion...

This probably wasn't the best subject to start again with as you can't really argue to much about it as so much is still un-known about the proposed movie project, hopefully Dave can come up with some burning quandry or question that we can tear apart and argue and analyze over all week??? (no pressure though ;) )

P.S. I'm not even rising to Adam's comments about HP as this should always try and remain a happy place....yes a happy place think of your happy...your place...happy place...happy...place...happy...happy...ahhh....gu rgle...

[sdkdmd]

rambling again :rolleyes: ;)

[Sophie]

I've just got the image of Tom Cruise in a blonde wig and mini skirt trying to play Zek... oh poo to you Adam, I'm gonna have nightmares :S

[Dave Black]

Er um . . . no pressure eh ? Cheers Helm, mate, buddy, pal, I owe you one.
Ok Lords and Ladies I'll try this idea :

Plausible deniability
Im not suggesting that Brians Necro saga is actually based on fact, a cover up in essence, Im not a total moron but do you believe the goverment, past or present has ever "dabbled" in the so called black arts ?
I for one do, whether it be telepathy, telekenisis, ouja boards etc and to what end would they do so, if you think Im way off have a think on a few things that one A. Hitler got involved in and you know in the "Arms Race" if one country does it all others must follow or be left behind.
Bear in mind Im new to everything technological especially website chatrooms so if Im slightly out os sync with the rest of . . . I,ll go sit in the corner and read a book.
Im a sad and lonely earthworm.

[Dave Black]

Hang on Ive just thought of something relevant about the movie debate, if you are wondering just how much a book can be destroyed when put in film form watch the lurking fear !

[Dave Black]

FORGET IT. HOLD ALL THOUGHTS.
Ignore the idea of e-branch being a possibility, that would be more fun over a few beers at the con.
Ive just had news about someone Ive known for a decade that has changed my life, the friendly old guy that lives opposite my inlaws is a multiple child molester! Lives in a sleepy little part of Torbay called Galmpton, this news coupled with all thats going on in this world i;e London suicide bombings etc etc, has made me think hard on just how evil people can be.
Brians Wamphyri are the essence of evil, arent they ?

A debate closer to the heart then but still in a Lumlian context.

Are the Wamphyri actually any more evil than normal human beings ?

I use the word evil explicitly for its precise meaning (get a dictionary if youre not 100 % sure)

This debate could cover a lot of ground if we all think on it and could be a good chance to vent our spleens.

I apologise if Im a bit off subject but I believe using the Wamphyri as an analogy gets us to the level of evil Im talking about and not just youre best mates latest fart!

[Adam Bigge]

I think the wamphyri are an idealised version of evil. They are readily recognizable and unrepentant. That makes them capable of much greater atrocities than normal humans but they also have no inhibitions about things that could be considered morally objectionable. How much more evil then is a child molester that knowing what he is doing is wrong and revels in it. I think that humans go much closer to their limits of depravity than the wamphyri ever could. And if we were grading on a curve that would put some humans pretty close to the top of the "Evil-o-meter".

PS.

I apologize (kinda) for throwing out the HP movies as an example. I just wanted to see if I could get anyone to puke.
smile.gif

[ July 30, 2005, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Adam Bigge ]

[DC 1]

Originally posted by Adam Bigge:
I think the Wamphyri are an idealised version of evil. They are readily recognizable and unrepentant. That makes them capable of much greater atrocities than normal humans but they also have no inhibitions about things that could be considered morally objectionable. How much more evil then is a child molester that knowing what he is doing is wrong and revels in it. I think that humans go much closer to their limits of depravity than the wamphyri ever could. And if we were grading on a curve that would put some humans pretty close to the top of the "Evil-o-meter".
smile.gif OK. Lets look at this then.

A majority of Wamphyri probably started out life as human. They then aquired an egg(Leech) in one way or another.

This now takes us back to the original debate. Is it the leech that makes the Wamphyri evil or is it the person who has the capability of being evil enhanced by the leech.

If we take Harry as an exapmle, I do not believe he was evil after he aquired his leech. It enhanced his already superhuman powers but did not make him evil.

This would lead me to believe that Wamphyri are NOT by nature evil. They do what they must to survive because their leech makes them survive. Yes, they may have a modicum of control over their leech in some circumstances but, in the end, the leech must survive.

Yes, by our standards they look evil. They use humans for food and fuel and other unspeakable things but to them, humans are cattle. They use human flesh like the majority of humans use cattle. And yes, some humans are Veggies and do not eat meat. Some Wamphyri are Zoltanists and abstain (for the whole) from human blood.

If this be the case then surely, we have the capability of being far more evil than the worst of the Wamphyri as all he/she is is a person with a leech bent on survival at any cost. Remember, the leech only enhances what is already there.

Are humans evil....Yes some are

Are Wamphyri evil....Yes most are.

Are Wamphyri more evil than Humans....Probably but only because the leech changes their perception on life. They will tell you they do what the must to survive. To them it is normal behaviour but to us it is terrible.

If cattle could talk, they would probably think what we do to them and their like is evil. It really depends on what your perception of evil is.

Ramble over. Hope at least some of this made sense.

smile.gif smile.gif

[Dave Black]

Groovy, for and against.
As the leech enhances and eventually encompasses all the hosts emotions it could be said that the Wamphyri are actually innocent of evil as they have no control over what they are doing.
A great many of the most evil people in recent history have been proved to have suffered trauma to the pre-frontal lobe which results in a total lack of morality amongst other things.
Does this then make people like say, Dennis Nielsen innocent of evil ? They had no control over their actions therefore it wasnt ther fault ?
In the same vein who gets to decide whats evil ? We view Al-Qaeda as evil(Im ex army so dont get me started) but in their eyes they are martyrs.
My point here is to DC where you say the Wamphyri are not by nature evil and merely do what they do to survive, can the same not be said for Al-Qaeda in their eyes ?
Yes the Wamphyri do some evil things: Canker raping a group of pre-teen girls.
How about a 14 year old boy raping a group of seven year old girls ?
Taxi drivers trebling their fares on the 7/7 ? Is that not evil ? consciously and deliberately profitting from the misery of others sounds evil to me.
If evil is an unconscious act in the Wamphyri then we are far worse as normal humans.
Im still undecided but I like the way the debates going.
Also DC you have no idea how glad I am cows dont talk.
MMMMMMMMM Beef !!!!!!

[DC 1]

How about any of the examples you have given magnified tenfold by a leech !!

The only thing I would say is it's hard to have a serious discussion when you are comparing obviously evil men/women from real life and characters from one of Brians Novels.

However, If an Al-Qaeda bomber had a leech, it would not allow him to blow himself up as it goes against all the leeches basic instincts to survive.

Remember, the leech not only gives the host near immortality, it magnifies the senses and emotions of it's host too. And all it asks for is a little food and drink in return

[chris the glut]

Harry wasn't evil, true. However he was slowly but surely losing the battle to stay in control, and he knew it. This suggests that only a supreme effort of willpower can prevent one from succumbing to the needs of the leech. His son managed to keep his leech in check, and Karen was capable of behaviour which did not appear to be completely motivated by self interest. It can be argued that no one is truly altruistic - even an ostensibly selfless act is motivated by the desire to feel good about oneself for example, and in Karen's case, being Wamphyri, an act that even remotely looks to be something other than completely self serving should be regarded as nothing short of miraculous. Here are 3 Wamphyri who don't exactly fit the general mould. Are they evil? They could have acted very differently and argued their leeches were solely responsible for their actions, but they didn't. They chose to place themselves in positions of extreme danger and vulnerability and accept responsibility for their actions. Even the ascetics of Turgosheim showed it is possible to survive and prosper without letting their leeches run rampant. If Necroscope teaches us anything its that there is always a choice - it's just that sometimes the choices we are confronted with are unpalatable, and that in life not all situations can be of the win/win variety.

[Dave Black]

Choice !!
That kind of sums up my point, whether we have a leech, a pre frontal lobe injury or are just wasted on drink and drugs we have a choice, however addled the mind is in any situation there is always more than one option available.
Ok so only 3 out of all the Wamphyri chose to control their evil intent but how many evil men chose that option ? Clearly we cant know, people are remembered for what they do not what they didnt do.
Of course DC the argument is kind of mute but the only point Im trying to get across here is that we love Brians books and revel in the utter evil of his constructs because they are fiction, but in reality the evil they display is every where around us all the time in normal human beings.
His fictional characters are closer to us than we would like to admit !

[chris the glut]

Yes, they are. And I think Brian was alluding to this through Johnny Found. Brian could have made it so Harry would go out fighting the good fight against one last Wamphyri. Instead he was outraged and incensed by an entirely human scumbag, so much so that he was willing to risk death to track him down and dispense his eye for an eye brand of justice. Yes, his leech had something to do with his anger, but I suspect Harry would have been just as vehement in his desire to finish off Johnny had he been entirely human.
The Wamphyri sometimes remind me in some ways of the bullies who are all bluff and bluster, the type that make threats but don't always act on them. You can talk your way out of a situation with these types because all they want to do is let you know they can dominate you. But Johnny Found reminds me of the quiet types who don't make public threats - they just get you, quietly, efficiently, with a minimum of fuss. And you just know they were waiting for the opportunity to do it to someone - anyone!
Who's scarier?

[Silver]

Gonna keep this short as I don't have a lot of time, but you should know by now I always have an opinion!

I think that the Wamphyri are no more evil than a human being can be, it's all about choice which has already been said.

[Dave Black]

where be that Helm be ? Oh ee be up the Helm tree.
Well as you suggested Im a mass debater (similar to what my mates say) surely you have an opinion.
Tum te tum.

[DC 1]

The Helm is MassDebating somewhere else by the look of it.

Choice.

Yeah, I can live with that. Most things come down to choice in the end. This must mean that the difference between Wamphyri and Humans is......Nowt.

At the end of the day, some people are evil (some call it ill or sick). Mostly this is through some kind of illness but in some cases, it is just pur