DEMOGORGON

[Nathan]

Part I

The whole idea of the pit beneath the old city is definately creepy. And the ritual performed there had some nice bits of grisly detail. After absorbing the two treacherous Iraqis and bubbling up from the pit needing a third, Guigos (I wonder what three names that name was derived from?) cannot find his third 'employee' and so must absorb a donkey...a beast that carried "The Good One." I thought that was interesting, (and funny) along with the parallel involving the ten plagues of Egypt during the ritual...frogs, lice, flys, locusts, etc.

But in Chapter four...!? Speaking of funny, Jase... Twenty one years later, when Khumeni was speaking with Willis, with that 'third employee' listening from between the roofs, he said, "Yes, he had everything to do with it. I suppose you could say he made an ass of me, Eh?" Effin hillarious, considering the circumstances.

Even more interesting on the next page is Khumeni praying to Shaitan. As I've said, when I read this originally, I was anxiously awaiting Deadspawn. Apparently it was already out--as I now see looking at the inside of this book--but I hadn't read it and so hadn't heard of this Shaitan..."The Great Fallen One, Whose Beauty is Unbearable"--"Unholy Tablet of Power, writ by Shaitan himself!"...? This thing seems to have its legends mixed up!

Poor Kastrouni (the third employee back in '36 who escaped) is having the beginnings of a bad day! Faced with a fear he'd half convinced himself to be an hallucination twenty years in the past, he now sees it to have been reality. Chased from his father's villa by the old "Ass" and then chased by Shaitan {?) himself, he gets knocked out by the returning Willis, effectively saving his butt from its own fear. On the brink of putting a bullet in his noggin, Willis is called away by his "employer" to presumably help Khumeni save the butts of the babies (?) incubating in the women he'd raped earlier.

I can already see that I am going to like Willis. He reminds me of a younger Jack Turnbull...back when he was a mercenary among other things. Or maybe Willy Koenig. I don't remember a whole lot about the Psychomech books, but from what I can remember...Koenig was the same type of guy.

Out cold in the vicinity of the enemy, what will happen to Dimitrios? Blood pouring from a wound inflicted by the spear gun of Kastrouni, what will happen to Khumeni...The Ass Man? (another Seinfeld classic. )

Onward to Part II. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ema]

Oie Nathan..lol, don't see how I will ever be able to top that! Might just have to lurk still in this subject as Writer I Am Not..

But I do have a question... you aren't comparing the 'Shaitan" in this book to be of the same in the Necroscope series are you? Hope not as there have been many different names for Satan (as well as there being many names people call their God(s) ), that being one of them. I'd have to say it was just a coincidence since I myself see no point in why The Master would have slipped one of the characters from that series into this book. But then again, maybe I am reading what you wrote wrong.

And using some of the plagues were a good touch for that. And for the folks who believe in the tablets, who's to say there aren't any 10 Un-Commandments? Me, I'd have probably seen more validity in there being actual tablets if they had mentioned there were also evil ones found in the same place. But that is getting into a debate on religion which is something I do not care to even delve into..lol Not my cup of tea.

Will have to continue refreshing my mind on the rest of the book and just wait to see what the rest will write.

[Nathan]

Yeah...I actually was comparing the two Shaitans. But I do realize that they aren't meant to be one and the same. It just makes me wonder if the Son of Satan in this book actually knows who he's talking to!

The way I understood Shaitan in Deadspawn was that he was the originator of all the myths about Satan--and evil in general--in both worlds...so therefore, is Demogorgon actually speaking with an entity he doesn't completely understand or even completely know like he thinks he does.

I know that one really has nothing to do with the other--they are, after all, separate stories--but I just like to speculate on such things...connections if that's what they can be called.

It just seems weird to me to read a BL story that deals so much with things...what? Christian? Or at least the Bible. But you're right...religion is something better left undiscussed!

...and you don't have to be a writer to play. [img]smile.gif[/img] Thoughts and comments are fine. [img]smile.gif[/img] That's all I'm doing. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm just long winded!

[Ema]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nathan:
The way I understood Shaitan in Deadspawn was that he was the originator of all the myths about Satan--and evil in general--in both worlds...so therefore, is Demogorgon actually speaking with an entity he doesn't completely understand or even completely know like he thinks he does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, had to do the quote thingy here so I wouldn't forget it..

From what I gather, I don't think he knows exactly 'what' he is dealing with, he has his own perceptions, but as anything 'unknown' there is always a risk dealing with something much stronger than yourself. And if that person (or thing) has the confidence (however insane that may be) that they can conquer all and mold it to their wishes, then whatever happens is well deserved. Another thing... for something so powerful.. it seems that it should be able to 'find' whatever it wants without having to rely only on fear. I mean, if the world had no fear, then how would it ever survive? That can be said to be true in this world today.

Cripes..lol, I'm getting out there again on subjects. Somebody just whap the fire outta me please! Oie...

Are you sure you want me involved with this Nathan? Heh heh

[Nathan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ema:
Are you sure you want me involved with this Nathan? Heh heh<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course I want you involved...maybe you most of all! You don't seem to have a problem disputing what I say and making me back it up! Or at least explain myself more fully. [img]smile.gif[/img] This is the kind of discussion I was hoping for in the first place! (Not that it's been boring without you. [img]smile.gif[/img]) But you do tend to bring a certain something extra to most anything.

Now I might be spoiling beyond Part One here but...

What I've gotten so far from the book concerning 'Donkey Boy's' origins is that he is the son of Satan...a son to offset the "good" brought into the world called the "Son of God." (who actually--it says--was conceived by an angel...not "God.")

I'll go more into that Friday when it's all over and ready to be posted...and when I have more answers to my questions.

But for now...how could he not know his creator? He obviously prays to him and calls on him for his powers, (the lightning) but does he know IT? The way Jesus was supposed to have known God? It seems so to me. The things that are expected of the Son of Satan seem to be things he knows about and has carried out for centuries.

It just makes me think of Dragosani and the way he was manipulated by Thibor to do the things Thibor wanted done...and Harry with Faethor, etc...

When I read the part about him praying to Shaitan, I just thought, "Who might this be that is claiming to be Shaitan and forcing this guy to absorb three individuals every so often to keep itself (and its Master?) alive? Maybe some 'Old Dead Thing' that desperately wants to be Undead again? Some long banished vampire that heard the legend of Shaitan in Starside and wants very much to strike fear into this new disciple?"

I know (?) it's not so, but like I said...my mind wanders and speculates about such things when I'm reading. Especially at the mention of someone with such an integral part in my favorite books!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ema:
Another thing... for something so powerful.. it seems that it should be able to 'find' whatever it wants without having to rely only on fear.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm wondering the same thing about its powers. Why does it only sense fear? And why couldn't Khumeni find Kastrouni for all those years...and even up through Charlie Trace's upbringing? How did he stay alive so long before the all powerful Demogorgon (Satan?) was able to track him down? Hopefully these questions will be answered with continued reading...but I'm open to speculation now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Usually when re-reading a book, no matter how long it's been, things start to come back to me as I'm reading, making it sort of a bore. Luckily, I seem to have only one memory of what happens in this book! It comes to a head back in the pit...can't wait. [img]smile.gif[/img]

One other interesting note...

At the back of my book it gives a summary of the first four Necroscope books but nothing about Deadspawn! I guess it wasn't out at the time...

But it says it was out in the booklist at the front...?

btw...I seeeeee yoooouuuuu.....

<FONT COLOR="#660000" SIZE="1">[ 07-31-2001 03:59 PM: Message edited 1 time, lastly by Nathan ]</font>

[Ema]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nathan:
btw...I seeeeee yoooouuuuu..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EEEKKK! Umm.. *primps* How do I look? lol

Well, I thank you for your words... :-D I reckon I can add ramblings pretty good to a conversation!

And thats good for finishing/continuing on Friday.. gives me a bit more time to read a few lines whilst reading my other book!

But I will say, the 'fear of power' that these beings portray & get their subjects to believe in are generally just that. Reading in other books, or listening to stories long ago and even now, that is the power they hold over everyone. They are fantastic BS artists, claiming to have Power over all when they more than likely have none to speak of.

Argh.. will have to finish this another time.. just completely lost my train of thought there... where did it go? Umm.. a reward to whoever finds it...

Entertaining to say the least! Hmm.. with all of my ramblings and all.. I'd make a great Politician eh? NOT!

[Jason of Khem]

Digging a bit deeper, Demogorgon is mentioned later in the book as Satan's familiar, his watchdog on Earth who takes on the form of lightning when bidded.

This cleared up a few points for me as I couldn't understand at first who or what Demogorgon was or even if was just another name for Satan.

[Nathan]

I KNOW!! I got to that part yesterday! Demogorgon isn't Satan or Ab/Guigos/Khumeni...?

What did it say in the part I read..."And the devil gave Ab the power to call up deomons, chiefly Satan's seedbearer, Demogorgon..."

I'm still a bit confused about the whole thing...more on Friday.

I wish I'd have paid more attention the first time around! This is a great book. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Jason of Khem]

Have to agree with you there Nathan. A brilliant read, I'd forgotten how good the book was.

Fantastic story with all the biblical references linking in with the action scenes.

I was in Rhodes in 92 so the good thing about this re-read is that it brings back memories of my holiday.

Whizzing up and down the dusty mountain roads between Rhodes Town and Lindos on a clapped-out bike, the airport terminal that's the size of a garden shed, the bored-looking customs officials and best of all pints of lager for 50p. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ema]

Ohh Jase! I think I remember you telling me once you had been there.. see, thats what I love about Brian's books... his descriptions of the areas are wonderful, makes a person feel like they are truly there. Thats a plus I look in any books myself. Not only a great story, but one that 'brings' you into the authors mind and imagination.

And yep, you tweaked my brain regarding Demogorgon being just a 'familiar', but still, even though just a minion... having to rely only on the fear to be able to find them.. not much using the brains on that plan was Satan eh? LOL

[Nathan]

One of the main things that gets me about Charlie Trace (and a couple of others) in this book is how naive and trusting he/they seem to be! As he's breaking it off with Jilly, he gives her a necklace that he had stolen from Cat Carter's place. I immediately knew nothing good could come from that! And it wasn't quite so bad that he let Kastrouni in to hear his story; there was after all, no danger to his knowledge at that point. But being a thief, I sure thought he'd be a bit more careful if only to cover his own butt! I mean, the guy followed him from his latest job, for f**k's sake!! But then when he sees the two men and the woman in Greece, he doesn't seem suspicious at all then either! I know he only half-believed Kastrouni's story at that point, but still, it seems like our hero is missing some inner alarm bells that thieves should probably be in possesion of! And does he not then think that possibly the man who is about to kill Saul Gokowski might actually be doing him a favor? He turns out to have done the right thing by stopping him, but why would he simply trust that the man in the monestary was on his side? But of course all this is neccessary to lead him on the path of the tale. These were just things that kept me thinking, "Whatchoo doin' fool? Don't you have eyes?!"

And then there is Gokowski and Khumeni themselves! Sheesh! The guy has a hoof for a left foot and they just assume he is right about his twin brother that died at birth being the actual son of Ab. The whole fate of the world hinged on Trace's innocence and, without any sort of proof otherwise, they just go along with it, leaving to fate the possibility that Charlie isn't what he so clearly seems to be! They've spent most of their lives living in fear and doing what they can to thwart Ab's plans only to get "in cahoots" with his son! Which, eventually I guess, turned out okay as far as their plans to destroy Ab went. But now they seem to have a whole new problem on their hands! That problem and how it turns out however, seems to be something we will not be privy to. Maybe someday we'll get the rest of the story...

There seriously needs to be a sequel to this book! Although I somewhat saw it coming throughout the entire story, I was a bit surprised at how it turned out. I thought that somehow Charlie would be able to overcome and eradicate the taint on his heritige by the end of the book. I guess I should have known that BL wasn't about to let that happen! "Happily ever after" is not something that BL seems to be known for!

Things that made me giggle hysterically...

What do you call a man who scratches himself at his mother's wedding? A lousy bastard! LOL!

Doity poiple boids, sittin' on de coib,
Choipin an' a-boipin, an' eatin doity woims! LMAO!

Things that made me cringe in disgust...

"The others, too, all dancing as if on hot coals, trying to dislodge that miniature vampire hoard. And not a single bite, not a drop of blood shed or sucked. For the pit-lice, fat and bloated as ticks, had already sated themselves-below." *shiver*

"It was nothing Mummy," he'd told her earnestly, "Nothing at all. It was only the ponies. They were playing, that's all, just playing!"

Charlie's two "brothers." The guy with the harry leg wasn't so bad...but the other...? eeeeeeeyuck!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------

In reference to the origins of Ab/Guigos/Khumeni and the parallels to biblical stories and happenings...pages 239 through 242 and page 319.

In reference to Ema's theory that power is largely based on fear...page 309. Khumeni's words and actions seem to heavily support that theory! I especially enjoyed Khumeni's end. Yet another story from the bible incorporated into this tale that seems so far from Bri's normal style. The last of the Demon Pigs to be sent over the cliff to its death...how appropriate!

All in all, this book was an exciting and fast-paced thriller that I will probably read again someday on a day that I have nothing else to do and nothing else to read. I was somewhat disappointed in Charlie's failure to overcome his evil bloodline...but I suppose the shock value would have been diminished greatly had he done so...

[Ema]

Eap! Heh ehh, what Nathan said! But seriously, you do cover pretty much everything here Nathan.

Regarding Charlie, I agree, you'd think that a thief would be more cautious (or smarter or ?... as you find out at the end of the book :-&gt; ), but also, he is pretty naive when it comes to things like that and his innocence/stubborness did outweight the common sense in alot of the things he did, case & point as you described, giving Jilly that necklace.

But you can also see at that time more of his personality... although his head said 'sheesh, tell her off once & for all so she'll leave you alone already!' but his consciousness/sensitivity/naivety(sp..lol) wouldn't allow him to be so hard.

I disagree though about a sequel, don't get me wrong, I would definately read it if he wrote a second one, but I think it stands on its own. Yes, you would like to know more of what happened, and yes, you either got it before you were done with the book or were surprised at the end, but as far as a whole book being written, I don't see where it could go. My thoughts on that would be that nothing good, meaning Happy ending/Hero of all time can be done. Maybe I'm wrong, but thats my thought.

It is an excellent book, like I had said before, it was one of my firsts (actually cannot remember if HOD or this one was my Virgin Book!) and for a weekend (or anytime read), I recommend this highly if you want to see a different way of writing by the Master (not having to do with Wamphyri).


Hmm...lol Ahh, submit it already Ema..

[VonDarkmoor]

as promised im posting my opinions on Demogorgon. Im just starting part 4 at the moment and so far this is what i found.

First part, very nearly stopped reading the book, found the initial introduction about the creation of "donkey boy" rather slow and boring. It started to get more interesting in the second part as there was more action in the villa. But still found that it was leaping around a lot and not easy to follow. Moving on to part 3, where trace gets introduced, i started to find it hard to put down. it was probably the references to other books and sources of information, that made it interesting. moving into part 4, and into the med it started to remind me of other stories, like the the "janos business from the necroscope 4" and the short story "no sharks in the med". I think the richness of the book starts to develop with progress through the book. Like a good bottle of wine, open it too soon and it wont be as good, leave it and it matures.

I think so far it hasnt been the rollercoaster that i expected, but ive certainly welcomed the detail and homework that Brian did on the locations and the cultures.

So far enjoyable and great. Cant help thinking that Charlie Trace is being built up from being a rogue, trickster to a bit of an anti hero and soon will become a pawn. He also seems to remind me of Harry during the Lost years, where he went of the rails in search of Brenda and Harry Jnr.

It continues, more as i keep reading...

[VonDarkmoor]

Finished the book at lunchtime today.

My final views on "demogorgon" are:

overall the story was OK, i wouldnt put it in the same league as the necro books. The build up was good, character introduction, but i couldnt help thinking that the end seemed rather rushed. I did enjoy reading the book, despite the above. enjoyed the anti hero element but with the ending being left open i.e. "grandson" you should know if you read it. Possibly this could be revisited? but it seems unlikely.