Right, had an idea kids and kidettes, not sure if it will work but I’ve run it past Tops and he reckons it’s good so I’m going to give it a try anyway.

 

The basic premise of this is that someone will come up with a topic or question and give their view on it and you lot basically throw in your views/arguments for and against backing them up with facts and points from the books and views in general.

The question must be something taken from the worlds of our beloved Mr Lumley, but it can come from any of his books or short stories.

 

The winner of the Debate is the person who can come up with the best explanation of their view on the subject citing reasons evidence etc that the most people agree with.

 

Obviously we’ll need someone to judge on this so myself and Tops will decide who, based on their argument, is the Master Debater, Then that person will have to come up with a question to be debated and so on and so forth.

At the start of each question the person does not have to give their views straight away and can wait till later on to throw their views and reasons into the melting pot.

 

I’m hoping that this will become quite a hot bed of conversation and arguments, it may not though and might just shrivel and die but nothing would ever happen if we didn’t give things I try.

 

So who is the Master Debater???…Only time will tell!!!

 

Right, well I think I should stick in the first question, it’s a bit of an oldie but I know plenty of people have differing views on it so it should be a good one to start with and get the proverbial ball rolling so to speak.

 

The Wamphyri leech is it really EVIL???

 

So over to you Ladies and Gentlemen…

 

[ February 16, 2004, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

Humm...the Wamphyri leech good or evil?

The way I see it is that the leech is evil. Here's how I see it... the leech expands its host's human emotions such as lust, jealousy and Hatred...this WILL change the most decent host into a very nasty and evil piece of work to say the least!!!! These emotions that are magnified would encourage other leeches (Wamphyri) to be at war with one another (for territorial reasons, rival's or just jealousy for one another) which not only causes problems that would lead to war amongst each other but will also encourage them to attack the humans to strenghan their armies.

Also, unlike other species that would never over-hunt in order to keep an equal balance, the Wamphyri would always over hunt, take all they could find and use it to feed and add to its army, and with a good amount of Wamphyri on Starside, this would increase wars and have its toll on the surrounding area in life.

Its thirst for blood is one major downside for the human tribes aswell as the Wamphyri - in Blood Brothers we find out that because of its,lust for blood, the Wamphri set up a tithe system due to the shortage of human tribes..which in the end made them a very weak race of Wamphyri in the East side of Starside.

 

As a short - the leeches are so evil, that they themselves are their own worst enemies.

Now some will comment on what I just said about the 'expanding its host's emotions' part and could say that its not the leech's fault but the host's as its their emotions - before they do, i'll prove that thats not the case..

We learn that from Brian's books that when a host is taken, it goes through a 'battle' with the leech - Harry went through it...and we saw how 'EVIL' the leech was in 'Deaspawn' as we read about that scene in Harry's garden when Harry almost lost control of his battle with his leech and almost killed the Minister Responsible's mind spy who's job it was to spy on Harry (sorry - cant remember his name!)! And Harry was a good man, he would never kill!

 

This is just one example!

Have you never over eaten Dan???

Urm?!?!?!?!!? Of course! Mucky D's is far too close!!! but seriously... whats your point?!!!!!!

You said that the leech is responsible and there fore evil, where as it seems to me that over indulging and wasting natural resources is a human trait anyway.

 

[ February 16, 2004, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

But Harry had killed before he was turned into a Wamphyri, many of a time and he wasn't shy about killing either! If anything it just increased his arrogance (which pisses me right off through the books) to a maximum. I thought he was getting too big for his boots by the end of dead speak, and him being foolish enough to let his guard down around Feathor's grave shows this, and when he was turned into a wamphyri I just thought it was perfect, knocked him down a whole lot of pegs. I think Harry was perpetually obsessed with the wamphyri, which makes him a great host for a leech.

 

In answer to helm's leech question. I don't like to define things by good and evil, because I those are shallow terms, and just give an easy way out to pigeon hole things, and the excuse to not really think. There are many shades of gray, and ambiguities surrounding everything, including the leeches who are the most ambigious of all, I think they are not evil(if you're going to use those terms), because they are just acting out on what their nature tells them to do. If anything it is human nature which makes the wamphri what they are amplified by their leech. Humans kill, maim, hurt and rape each other, and treat animals like their dirt, and destroy our planet every day, like we own EVERYTHING. I think we are no better than the wamphri, and to think we are, and to think we have the right to wipe a species out or any species out or catagorise them as good/evil etc, is human arrogance. The human arrogance that was originally there is amplified by the leech, and this causes the Wamphri to be the ultimate arrogance. I see it as a paradox. If we didn't have the arrogance the Wamphyri wouldn't probably as been as they were.

 

But yeah I don't like the human race, can ya tell?

lol

 

Sophie

Hummmm... there is alot of greed in human nature - BUT, we're talking about the world of sunside/starside that is the source of the Wamphyri - a different world to us, and not once in the vampire world book do we hear of greed within the tribes there, it is a totally different world Helm, its alot more 'wilder' out there and things are not settled down there as it is here.

I don't think thats a factor though, their world has been held back and is behind in the sciences etc but that doesn't mean that the people don't act in a similar way to the people of our earth.

There are still murders/rapes and territorial disputes among the normal people of that world and they are only held back from a lot of that by the oppression of the Wamphyri, just because Brian never wrote about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

(What about the rape of Radu's sister by men of her own tribe or Arkis(might not be right)who would of handed over Zek and Jazz to Shathis for his own gain)

 

The Wamphyri in our world don't act any different to the ones from the source world, thats like saying that a child from a broken home is going to turn out worse than a child who has an ideal home background.

You just never can tell.

 

It's beside the point anyway the question is is the Leech itself EVIL???

 

[ February 16, 2004, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

Sophie, nice point about the leeches!! And im gonna agree with you on what you just said, its exactly right! they do increase its host's feelings - but - you said this about the human side 'Humans kill, maim, hurt and rape each other, and treat animals like their dirt, and destroy our planet every day, like we own EVERYTHING'

 

Maybe a little too honest (but its true!!) .....anyway, back to my point - what about the werewolf Wamphyri? like Clanker?!?! he wasnt all human 'more dog than man'

 

But he was just as bad.

They're evil!!! im telling ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well....in general on average I would say that the human race in whole would consider anything or anyone evil that kills, enslaves, considers themselves better than us etc.... (i.e. hitler)

 

 

do I believe that the leech serves a higher power supernatural evil being? ...no

 

 

"have you ever wondered why it seems that evil you're attracted to"

~Slayer

Good or Evil...How do you tell the difference.

 

The leech is a natural (Un-natural if you like) survivor and will do anything to ensure the survival and evolution of it's chosen host.

 

Like any other creature, survival is paramount to the leach and this may give it a rep for being evil.

 

But is it.... Is this not also a human trait. Even the process of finding a warm blooded (Mostly) creature as a host is a natural instinct in the leech. It does this out of survival. When it knows it is dying it will produce its egg as a last resort to ensure the survival of the species.With few exceptions, humans also have a basic survival instinct. You may believe that there is a line you would not cross to ensure your survival but until that time comes, you do not know for sure.

 

Remember that the Wamphyri kill mostly out of necessity, for food, for fuel, even to weaken the other Lords armies Just like the human race but they do not kill for fun only (not too often anyway).

 

The leach does give to it's host. It prolongs the life span, enables the host to heal quickly (most diseases anyway) but it does take in return.

 

Also, if you read the books, you will notice that the wamphyri are aware that they must not over indulge in their hunting. Hence the tithe system. Humans have been known to hunt a species into extinction.

 

So you tell me. Who is evil and what is your definition of evil

The leech cannot be seen as evil or obviously as good because as mentioned before it is in their nature to be what they are and do what they do. For example take a cat, a lot of us love them, well I know I do, but when they are out at night they hunt even though they get fed at home buy gullible owners. We know that they hunt but don't question their innocence, why? well because it's in their nature and it's the same with the leech because they cannot help what way they were made( although the leech is not cute).

 

But lets not get off topic and get into a nature nurture debate. (I jest)

Really good points DC i Agree with you. We as humans are meant to have free will but the leech seems to act purely out of instinct which tells us that the leech does not seem to have much choice in the matter. Humans are much more gruesome but what makes them sinister too is the fact that they have a handsome cocoon ( for want of a better word) to hide the hideous interior (although this does not include all humans) This mask that they can wear makes them equally if not more dangerous. This should tell you something why would the leech choose a human as their host in the first place? Think about it.

I reckon its about how you interpret Evil... Humans can be evil thats not in debate, we are conscious of what we do -- we have a choice. Now the leech is a creature of instinct, its a matter of survival - are Lions evil? are sharks evil? they can be killing machines but on a level of survival I would not call them evil.

 

The natural trait for the leech is to find a host, to find a symbiotic host to help it survive and grow. Its natural host is human ... it adapts and prospers for a very long time in humans - therefore in essence it just wants to survive - to do this it grows and fuses with the human body and psychie. The baser instincts that often are controlled come to the surface of humans, and the leechs influence breakdown our human controls. Evil deeds CAN then come to the fore but IMHO because of the weakness of humans not because the leech is evil ...

 

I see the leech as a parasite, but not fundamentaly EVIL .... Like all living creature it wants to survive, and it will stop at nothing to achieve that, but without the human conscience it would not be able to do CONSCIENCE evil deeds on its own....

 

I THINK THATS WHAT I MEAN!!??

... I've just read DC's post and I reckon he's put what I also think more eloquently!!!

yeah, I think the leech is an innocent creature, and like others have said before it simply amplifies the mostly hidden dark side of humans, can you imagine if Hitler had a leech? A terrifiying thought.

 

I'm not going to get into this debate as I want to watch. And as some of you know this has been a very long debate that's been running for nearly a year and a half off the board!

 

Oh, The Helm never put a timescale on the debate, I think there should be a maximum on these things as they could go on forever, and then who would ask the next question? Would they get a chance? I reckon a week of posts is more than enough for a heated debate, all those in favour say "Aye", and continue the debate.

Originally posted by DC:

 

So you tell me. Who is evil and what is your definition of evil

Exactely, as I said in my post, I'm sick of people mindless pointing and saying "he's evil, she's evil, etc" They don't even think that good and evil most of the time is a matter of opinion and relative. A quick example is how the extremist muslims call the christians evil, because they don't follow their religious order, and the extremist Christians call the Muslims evil, and vice versa. (The mind boggles at Narrow minded views)

 

Anyway off subject slightly, I'll shut up now.

 

DC, your post was beautifully written btw

 

Sophie

 

[ February 16, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Sophie ]

Yeh ... I reckon a weeks about right ... don't want to ramble on and on and on and on and on toooo much.....

Please people, keep off subjects like religion and politics - it'll cause problems... This isn't a forum to attack people.

Maybe we can look at this another way.

 

Is the Leech evil?

Are Wamphyri Evil?

If they are, Why?

 

As I stated earlier, I believe the leech to be an organism purley focused on it's own survival at any cost. This, whilst unpleasant, is not necessarily evil.

 

Wamphyri. I think most would agree are evil incarnate. They are despicable creatures who are only interested in themselves above all others and their territory. They can only just live togeather but will always plot to better their get.

 

Now whilst the Wamphyri would not be without their leech, this begs the question is it the leech that make the Wamphyri evil and if this is so, then surely this makes the leech evil.

 

But hang on a second before you decide. What about Vampires. You know the other blood sucking abominations that do not have a leech. Look back at some of the story lines in the books. Surely the vampire lieutenants are as evil and despicable as their masters. Most of them would kill their own mothers for a chance at getting a leech.

 

They would kill just for the fun of it if they thought their masters would let them get away with it. But they do not have a leech yet.

 

So is it really the leech that makes the Wamphyri evil or is it something else inbred into the leech's host. The "I'm bigger and Stronger than you" mentality that humans have in abundance. Remember that there were Wamphyri who could, within reason, control their blood lust.

 

Maybe, just maybe, the leech is the innocent victim here. All it wants is a host to live inside. In return it will protect the host at all costs. It will enhance most of the senses but, if that host is already evil, hey, what does the leech care as long as it survives.

 

Ok, I will shut up now and let someone else say summit.

First of all I’m going to make my stance clear, I believe the LEECH is EVIL incarnate.

I’m going to give you my first bit of evidence for the prosecution for you to chew over and then in mid-week I’ll give my final say on the matter, obviously this is only my opinion and therefore disputable.

 

First of all a lot of you have said that the leech is only obeying basic instincts and is relatively mindless and therefore only doing what comes natural to it, ergo not evil.

But I beg to differ; in Necroscope 3 the Source they have if you’ll remember a “mindless” leech in a tank.

Now the keeper of this abomination who’s name escapes me right now becomes infected by an egg that this thing releases, but the big thing is that to release it’s egg the leech overrides it’s prime basic instinct to feed, as blood and offal is pumped into the enclosure the leech ignores the food, something surely impossible in a creature that doesn’t think and is only governed by natural/unnatural instinct.

 

This to me points to a form of sly intelligence within the creature, this doesn’t mean it’s evil but surely you can see that it can’t be completely innocent either…

 

[ February 17, 2004, 04:14 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

... but surely it releases its egg to prolong its own existence, again a natural instinct for surival. The Leech certainly isn't a fluffy little misunderstood bunny rabbit, but I still believe the EVIL really kicks in when mixed with humans conscience.... the essence of the Wamphyri then transfers to the vampire - not just the leech.....

I think the point about the leech in the tank is a good one. But I think you may have missed the point to this.

 

All this shows is that the leech is a parasite and needs to live in Symbiosis with another creature (the host).

 

Keeping it in a tank and feeding it every so often is not what the leech needs to survive. Like most other parasites, it needs a host to live off and grow to it's full potential.

 

By bringing forth it's egg it has only done what it is compelled to do to survive. This just reinforces the argument for the leech being totally ruthless in it's quest for survival and, IMHO, does not even slightly imply a sly intelligence.