OK, just read all these post's - they're all valid points, I have to agree with Sophie, DC and Tops as well as many others. I guess I missed alot of these points said!

 

OK, so maybe the leeches are not evil, but are they slaves to their hosts? But two things that puzzles me is that we learn in the books that the 'host' has a battle with the leech which wishes to gain supremacy, and most of the Wamphyri had lost that battle...only Harry and a few others did not give in to it. Sooooo, if the leech is in control... then its not the human side at all, but the leech's...or am I wrong?

The second is DC's point in his last post - about the vampires....

 

Humm...a good topic indeed!!!!!

Good point, but I think that the leech when joined with its host becomes a catalyst for our base emotions - as the leech evolves it takes on our traits also, and therefore the internal fight begins. Its all about the need for survival ... the leech will do anything to survive and if that means a greater influence of the host - then so be it.... but again does that make it evil

there are different levels of survival...there's 'killing just for food' and then there's 'killing just for the hell of it' ...now going on what has been said, about the Wamphyri and their humand hosts. OK, point given about the human feelings that are magnified and resulting the lust, jealousy and Hatred to be increased, but what of the werewolves? they wernt human before, yet will still have the thoughts and feelings as the human hosts of the Wamphyri... if that makes sense!!!

Originally posted by Tops:

Please people, keep off subjects like religion and politics - it'll cause problems... This isn't a forum to attack people.

Sorry tops was just trying to make the point that evil is a matter of opinion, didn't mean to offend.

 

Sophie

So this basic creature out of instinct knew that when food was pumped into it's cage that valves would be opening allowing something small enough to get out and lead to the man on the outside?????

 

I think your going to have to grant the leech must have some form of intelligence...

 

As for it needing to reproduce so that it can go on, well I'm pretty sure that it can survive almost indefinatly even on a minimal diet.

I might give you the intelligence thing, but it could have some form of esp power that knows when best to let an egg go.

 

Just a thought.

 

oh, and Sophie, no need for apologies, I was just stretching It's just so easy to go OT (or OTT even ) with politics and religion.

 

Tops

I think that the leech certainly does have some basic intelligence ... at least an understanding of what it NEEDS to do.... The ESP point is good, again think that this could be a basic trait - but whereas most humans don't use it, could be second nature to the leech?! ..and thats where the Wamphyri powers come from ... so many points to think about.

 

But maybe I'm moving away from the debate somewhat - Is the LEECH EVIL? None of the points made have changed my mind as yet ... I still say NO...

and I still agree. I think it's instinct.

There is one point that needs to be considered; how did the leech come to be, in the first place? can something be born of pure evil?

 

The leech will do anything to survive due to instinct but the sole purpose of it's survival is to destroy the human race. To me this seems a lot more personal than just using humans for food.

 

I am beginning to analyse the other side of the argument

Sorry that was two points that needed to be considered

I do not think that the sole purpose of the leech is to destroy the human race.

 

The leech is getting a really bad rep here and I think we need to reconsider some of the points raised:

 

1. The leech does not kill anyone and may not directly cause anyone to be killed. This is done by whichever creature the leech has found as a host. whilst we all seem to agree that it heightens senses and emotions, this in itself is not a reason to find it guilty of attempted genocide.

 

2. The leech NEEDS a host. Whilst it may well be able to survive without one in a tank or wherever, it's basic requirements are to find a host, no matter what and to ensure that host survives as well. (Hence the longevity and the extra "powers").

 

3. Yes, the leech may have some type of sixth sense or esp. This would indeed help it in its quest for a host. After all, if an egg is on the move and it comes across a Wamphyri, it knows NOT to even try and take it as it's host. So this would indeed point to some type of sense or intelligence even.

 

4. We also know that if you are strong enough, you can subdue the leech. Zoltism is an example of still making your own choices (to a certain extent). If the leech was evil and all powerful then this would never happen. The bloodlust comes from the leech but this is only it's way of feeding. All creatures need food and the leech is no exception. Big cats eat red meat but no one has said they are evil.

 

5. I do not believe you can be born evil. I think this occurs through choice and/or circumstance and, to an extent, upbringing.

In the case of the leech, it's only thoughts are to feed and to survive. This is not evil but natural. Whilst the leech itself may be an unnatural creature it's instincts are certainly not.

 

At the end of the day, the question about whether the leech is good or evil is down to your own ideals about life and survival. The choices you make during your life dictate who and what you are. The leech does not seem to be able to make any choice other than to ensure it's survival and growth. Does this make it Evil?

Right I think it’s time for my final say on the matter, once again this is only my opinion and therefore completely disputable.

 

At the beginning of the original loop and by this I mean Shaitan falling and Harry/Alex’s corpse falling into the swamp. (Books1-5)

Brian mentions that Shaitan is the product of the God mind casting out it’s dark side I.E. Shaitan, this defines Shaitan as pure EVIL he is the dark that must exist if we have light.

 

Now my point is Harry Keogh suffers throughout his entire life, suffering for our sins if you like, and before his mind explodes in a golden bomb burst it is explained to him that this has all been a test, an experiment and that he has past that test and been found worthy of migrating onto the next level.

 

So Harry goes through the same thing as the God mind and he is separated into two half’s one being all that was good about him and the other being his darker side, which is his flesh and Leech.

 

I believe that this then defines the vampire in him EVIL and is why Harry’s body and leech fall in the same place as Shaitan thereby sealing the loop.

An excellent argument DC (as always) but I don't agree that the leech, unnatural as it is could possess natural instincts. I respect that the leech is just trying to survive, which is an natural instinct but what is it's sole purpose?

The Helm has answered that question.

 

My final view would be that the creator of the leech is evil but probably not the leech itself,however, this next point may suggest that the leech is as evil as it's creator. This evil creator (which is more than likely Shaitan) made the leech in his own image just like god made humans in his/her/it's own image.

Sorry forgot to point out that Shaitan himself became one great big leech. Another point is that it seems to me too much of a coincidence that the leech was in the swamp at the same time that Shaitan fell. My point is that the leech was being used by it's creator to infect the human race and to corrupt any innocence left in the world and to infect Shaitan himself.

 

The leech is probably not evil but rather an instrument of evil.

(I just can't make up my mind it's not my fault that I can see both sides of every argument hmm and thats meant to be a good thing) :confused:

Whilst I can agree with a lot of the comments, I would still suggest that the leech itself is not evil.

 

In it's single minded purpose to survive, it will posses/inhabit a host creature. The by product of this un natural match is, in itself utterly evil (Wamphyri).

 

The by product of the Wamphyri's need to feed and ensure it's leech's survival is also evil (Vampires)

 

And yes, some characters even sought a leech of their own for the power it would give them (Wratha for one).

 

But again, the leech did not make them evil. The evil was already inside them. The leech just heightened their ego and hatred for others etc. Whilst the leech needed the host, the host in turn became more and more reliant on the leech.

 

None of this would prove that the leech was evil. Some of the "evidence" might suggest that the leech could be evil but nothing at all proves this beyond any doubt.

 

And yes, the leech was made in the image of it's creator who most would agree was the pinnicle of evilness. But as man was made in the image of God, not all men are good. Some are evil beyond belief. So does this not also mean that something created by his evilness himself could not be good?

 

Again, evidence may point towards it POSSIBLY being evil but this has never been proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

 

I say unto you all, the leech is just a victim of circumstance and the Helms increasing harrasment. I believe that the Helm actually knows the leech is innocent but, just as he denied being a collector, he will deny this....for now!!!!!!

I'm still going to say it's not evil (though I don't like using such black/white terms) For arguments say I'll say no. DC put it fantastically with saying it was the rot already in the hosts minds which was increased by the leech bond with the host. I think its jumping to conclusions to say that every creature born to this world(s)is considered natural, but the leech isn't included in this. The leech is no less flesh and bone as turtle or snake, no less natural, and because it is flesh and bone, I wouldn't rule it out for being considered natural. If it was a being that wasn't corporal and floated about like Harry does when he loses his first body , I would say it isn't natural.

 

So because in my view the leech is natural(not a sentient being like a human), it couldn't be evil as anything that is natural only wants to survive as it's instinct tells it to. I view the leech with some intelligance, but only enough to survive. As the books demonstrate, the animals(foxes, wolves) that are used as hosts are considerabely less rabid (lol bad pun sorry), and terrible, than when a human is taken by a leech. Which would logically conclude, that it's more evil in mens hearts, than in the leech.

 

Sophie

As for the Leech being Natural/Un-Natural, surely my last post confirms without doubt that the Leech is completely outside the natural order of things, as it has no genesis, it never evolved, it just was...

Surely this points to it being something that you can't look at and judge in the same way as every day things.

The Leech is a Blasphemy, it should never have been and there fore I deem it EVIL.

 

 

Oh and about DC's point on whether the Leech or the Man/Woman was in control, it's always the Leech, it always has complete control.

Only 3 people in 3,000 years have beaten it Turgo Zolte, Harry Keogh and Harry Keogh JR (The Dweller)

 

[ February 19, 2004, 03:51 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]

If the leech is in total control, why then do we read about Wamphyri "commanding" their leech to heal them. Why is it the descision of a Lord or Lady to tell the leach to kill of any "bodily fluids" exchanged during matings?

 

This cannot be the actions of the lesser partner in this unholy union but point towards the host having control as long as his/her/it's actions do not threaten the existance of the leech.

 

Nobody has denied or argued that the leech is outside the natural order of things. But to say it is a blasphemy is only your opinion, and not a fact.

 

There may have only been 3 people in 3000 years who have beaten the leech (If Turgo did then what about the Lords and Ladies who followed his teaching/example), but this only proves how weak these Lords were or how much they enjoyed the power and immortality bestowed upon them by their leech. If I had a leech invade my body and give me the powers of a Wamphyri Lord, I doubt I would want it removed or subdued either .

 

These are not the Vampires you see on TV or in films who are all lost and victims of circumstance we are talking about. These are fierce Wamphyrie who are Gods in their communities and who want to be treated as such and probably love every moment of it.

(When Harry removed Karens leech, she could not live without it after knowing "life" with it.

 

Again, the point would be, it depends on each individuals perception of good and evil. So far I have not heard one thing to make me believe that the leech is EVIL.

Good point...but ive not heard anything to convince me that the leech is GOOD neither. infact...so far - there's been alot more bad points about them rather than good.

Good point...but ive not heard anything to convince me that the leech is GOOD neither. infact...so far - there's been alot more bad points about them rather than good.

Oh bugger! Its posted it twice!! Now look who's the fool! :-(

I don't think that anybody is trying to say that the leech is good; but just trying to decide if the leech is evil or not.

 

In my opinion the leech feeds their host an illusion that they are in control; the leech does this to avoid conflict with the host. The leech is aware that it's own-self is strong but depends on it's host for obvious reasons therefore it know's that it cannot afford the luxurey of allowing it's host to realise that he/she is not as strong as they thought; this could cause an act of free will to come into play and the banishing of the leech.

 

:confused:

Sorry, emm that was a reply to DC about his point that the host has some control. When you sell your soul (so to speak) you lose your free will, wel unless you are as special as Harry etc.

So we're gonna agree that the leech isn’t evil nor good...but its a life form that's very good at survival of the fittest then?

 

Because I’ll agree with that!

Nope. I think what we should be saying that the leech acts on instinct alone, not thought. I do not really believe the leech is a sentient being and if this is the case, how can it be evil (or, I suppose good for that matter).

 

What I was saying is that it is the host, and not the leech that is eventually corrupted by the sense of power the leech gives it and thus it is the host who is evil, but only as a by product of hosting the leech (Huh).

 

I am now going to bang my head against the floor to sort out what I have just wrote. (Doh)

 

[ February 19, 2004, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: DC ]