February 20, 200421 yr comment_249 OK, not to try and break this down to being too simple but no one has mentioned the Mobius Continuim Life threads. Any life thread that has a leech or Vampire taint is red when the rest of the life threads are not. I think that in this way it shows that the Leech has changed the host it invaded in a way that goes beyond just natural instincts of survival and turns them into something evil and corrupted. This of course is a total opinion on the metaphysical nature of the life threads and the fact that once there is a leech involved it seems to be the only thing that will change the color of the life thread. So, even with Humans inclination to do "evil" or bad things that doesn't change their life thread, only the introduction of a Leech or the Vampire Taint. So, my opinion is the Leech is evil.
February 20, 200421 yr comment_250 I think the beauty of the leech's working is that it can debated for hours, days, or years, and still nobody is right or wrong, as everybody has a different take on it, and different views of life which will effect this. Brian should be proud that his work has inspired so much thought within people. But for the sake of this debate I agree with DC's arguement in total really, so I don't have to bore anyone by repeating it again Sophie
February 20, 200421 yr comment_251 I agree that the relationship with the Leech alters the person, hence the life thread alters as well, but I still maintain that its the total mix and not just the leech that is EVIL ... the influence of the leech is undeniable, but I still have not had enough evidence to say that it starts out EVIL....
February 20, 200421 yr comment_252 Humm...there's sooo much to argue over!! Who know's! Has anyone asked Brian this one?!?!?
February 20, 200421 yr Author comment_253 If I remember correctly he agreed about it being evil, but that could be just false memory syndrome as I would obviously want Brian to side with me. I think Brian himself just enjoys the fact that we argue and debate about something he created, I know I'd get a buzz out of it (note to self must write an amazing book(s))
February 20, 200421 yr comment_255 I do remember what Brian said when asked about this but will not refresh the Helms obviously faulty memory on this. It would be unfair (Hee Hee) A question: If a Wamphyri Lord/Lady drained a victim totally, that victim would become a Wamphyri Lord/Lady. Does this mean that they would grow a leech or would they be Wamphyri and have no Leech. Answers: Grow a leech. Then the idea of the leech always being around may just be a myth and in reality, the leech is a byproduct of the Wamphyri and not the other way round No Leech. Then why does everyone think that it is the leech that is evil when in reality, it is the virus of the Wamphyri which is evil and this cannot always be attributed to the leech. Whilst this is not really a part of the debate, it was summit I thought about whilst writing.
February 20, 200421 yr comment_256 okkkkk.....hummmm....sooo.... are they evil or not?!!?? because thats what the question said! There was no half way!!!!
February 20, 200421 yr comment_257 No. The leech, in itself is not evil. Once you mix a leech with a host, both should probably be classed as evil as they are, in effect one but I believe the evil side of this union is from the host and the leech, as it exists in symbiosis with the host, would be affected in some way. But, as the debate was Is the leech evil I would have to say NO, the leech cannot be classed as evil.
February 20, 200421 yr Author comment_258 That's not to say that it isn't either, this is a debate after all and all opinions and views are welcome.
February 20, 200421 yr comment_259 At first I thought that the leech was an evil factor. But after hearing the points that have been made on here, I’m starting to think I’m wrong! Although… as what’s also been said, the leech does magnify its host's emotions which causes the host to be a lot more aggressive and careless for others, which does make the Wamphyri an evil creature. But is it really just the host? As I have said before, the leech battles with its host to achieve greater control - which in almost every case - it gets...so its the leech's own doing, not the host's surly. The host's emotions are increased as well as strength, but no caring feelings (even though the books have said that Wamphyri have fallen in love, it’s very rare) is this because the leech sees it as a weakness? Or does it hate the thought of caring for others because it’s an evil parasite? Also, one of Helm's I think.... About in the 'Source' that Leech in the tank...I wouldn’t say it was a lovely thing at all! Would you?!?!!?!? I’ll have to read up on that part of the book to see... And lastly, I’ve said about the Wamphyri whose host was not human but of dog, fox or wolf...but these Wamphyri are still just as evil as the other Wamphyri who had human hosts…. And were we not saying before that its human’s that have the emotions of greed, anger, jealousy and hatred? I do agree with that the leech does take after its host's emotions...but what about these other points that say against it?
February 20, 200421 yr comment_260 That was a really valid point that Mad American made about the life threads; it proves that their mission (leech) goes beyond any evil deeds performed by humans.
February 21, 200421 yr comment_262 Great debate but I am sticking with my view of the leech being the evil originater. I am going to have to go back and read the books again, since it has been awhile but doesn't Shaitan take on the appearance of a leech when he is stranded in the Icelands? Or am I just hallucinating again? Something about the holes drilled in the Ice to suck the other trapped beings juices? So, if what I remember is correct then Shaitan changing to resemble the Leech is like it completely exerting its influence on the host, therefore showing that it is the in control evil of the pair. Although, if I imagined or hallucinated the Shaitan thing, I accept that I am a complete idiot and my opinion doesn't matter.
February 21, 200421 yr comment_264 Thought of one more point and probably my last on this. Canker was fox/wolf mix, with slight human origin. I always thought the books demonstrated that he had more redeeming features that the pure human Wamphyri. Though I'm not saying he wasn't terrible and cruel in places. He sort a genuine friendship with Nestor, while all the others would have just had him expelled from the stack. I even thought he demonstrated genuine kindness, affection towards Nestor and his moon mistress. Don't the human Wamphyri in Torgosheim, well more Devetaki and Vormulac, talk about eradicating, the none human origin Wamphyri and succeed within their own army at the end of Blood Wars? As they thought they were beneath them, and very inferior? Also the very last three Necroscope books, with the new generation Earth bound Necroscope, Jake. As well as most of E-branch are infected by the spores, and most of the entire world. They manage to control the leech, and enter a new a gentler age of mutant human existence. This also makes me feel, the leech enhances the hosts base emotions, fears, and egocentricities, but not necessarily as a bad thing, as was demonstrated in the last books. This again me feel the leech will only be as evil (even though I think good and evil is a load of crap, and life can't pigeoned holed into neat little categories for our convenience. It's far too Black and white), as the hidden base darker emotions of it's host. Everything we have discussed about is definetly food for thought Sophie [ February 21, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: Sophie ]
February 22, 200421 yr comment_265 I have to say theres been some great points and arguments made in this thread.... real food for thought. It hasn't swayed me away from my original thoughts, that fundamently the leech is NOT EVIL... but everyones points are certainly valid...
February 23, 200421 yr comment_266 That is why choosing this as the first debate was so good. Everyone has his or her own opinion on the leech. Mostly, this is formed whilst you are reading the books and depends on how engrossed you are in the storylines. You can debate all year on this (Some of us have) and still not decide if the leech is evil. (No one suggests that it is good). My own opinion is that the leech is just that, a leech, and as horrific as it may sound, it is just a parasite doing what it has to do, survive at all costs. As I said in the beginning, how far would you go to survive if your existence was on the line? Really enjoyed this one by the way
February 23, 200421 yr Author comment_267 Final thought (oooohh, I feel like Jerry Springer) Well plenty of good points fore and against, not quite sure(s) and somewhere(s) in between’s, I’m sure this particular debate will rage on as long as there are still Lumlians abound to contest it but I’m afraid all good things must come to an end and unfortunately the time has run out on this little beauty in this particular thread. Thank you to everyone who contributed all opinions, ideas and thoughts were greatly appreciated. Well all that’s left for me to do is reveal the Master Debater (he he) and that is…DC Me and Tops went for DC as he seemed to get his point across the clearest and also he seemed to have influenced the most people in there thinking. So then all that’s left for me to do is await DC putting up our next debatable topic, so that I can get on with disagreeing with him [ February 23, 2004, 04:18 AM: Message edited by: The Helm ]
February 23, 200421 yr comment_268 Does this mean that I've missed out the the debate? If not, one point to make with regard to the colour of the life lines as it where... Trogs were also a different colour to the others.... Green I think although can't remember about the Thrye. So don't see where the colour comes into it.
February 23, 200421 yr Author comment_269 Yeah you've missed this one fella but don't worry we shall be conducting another as soon as DC comes up with a worth while topic.
February 23, 200421 yr comment_271 OK here's my 2 pence for what it's worth The leech is not evil. For all the reasons that have already been stated but the point that I would like to mention is that the leech, in order to survive, which is it's number one goal in life amplifies it's hosts emotions, this has already been said and lets face it it is much easier to survive if you don't care for anything other than yourself. Love and affection are dangerous as they can blind you to an enemy and can make you weak, as far as survival instinct is concerned. If you treat everyone as an enemy and fuel those baser emotions you have a far better chance of survival, this is all instinctive behaviour not inteligent. The reason this is instinct and not inteligence is proved by those who managed to override the desire kill (for example) by recognising it as the leech feeling threatened any by doing so manage to make the decision to go with it, or not like Harry when he doesn't kill Paxton, even though he wants to. It's his leech feeling threatened which encourages his desire to kill but Harry ultimately makes the decision, not his leech. Also the leech fuells all emotions, not just the baser ones even though they are used more often for the survival thing it's still only going on what the host is feeling, Harry and Karen did seem to fall in love, it wasn't just lust they actually cared for eachother despite their leeches. Also Wratha thought that she loved Nestor, even though he didn't. This is my argument, if it was trully evil they wouldn't be capable of caring for eachother at all.
February 24, 200421 yr comment_272 Congratulations DC. The title was well deserved An excellent debate.
February 24, 200421 yr comment_273 Titus Crow or Henri de Marigny. Who d'man Was Titus all he was cracked up to be. Was Henri the real force. Who is your favorite and why. OR are they nowt without each other. Discuss. Normal rules apply and contributors/readers should ignore the banter between the Helm and Myself. Remember, you do not have to believe what you say, just make the rest of us agree And Thank you, I'm not sure if being called the master debated is a compliment but thanx anyway :confused: [ February 24, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: DC ]
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